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{\*\generator Msftedit 5.41.15.1515;}\viewkind4\uc1\pard\lang2057\f0\fs20 Ouch Podcast #56 \endash  October 2010\par
bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast\par
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Presented by Mat Fraser and Liz Carr\par
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The Ouch Podcast is a download from the 麻豆社. For more information, and our terms of use, go to bbc.co.uk/ouch.\par
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LIZ\tab Thanks for downloading the show, this is the first of two podcasts for October. Aren't we spoiling you this month wow! Hold on to your iPods though because Mat Fraser is back.\par
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MAT\tab Yeah and it's so good to be back, Liz, with you my favourite co-host. Rob Crossan will be here to enlighten us on the latest weird disability news later and we have Shannon Murray the model, not the girl who went through that weird pretend kidnap by her mum up north. She's fronting Debenhams's autumn clothes range.\par
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LIZ\tab That plus our chat and your emails. \par
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[Jingle: From the 麻豆社 in London it's the Ouch Talk Show with Mat Fraser and Liz Carr]\par
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MAT\tab Liz, is it easier to be a disabled man or a disabled woman? \par
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LIZ\tab You come in with quite the question haven't you? You've been away for three months and now you ask me that. Why this need for battle of the sexes? \par
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MAT\tab Well it's just that it occurs to me that crip or not crip it's still a man's world and I was actually... I've been going through a lot of woes, oh me and my poor disabled self, because I'm decorating my new flat at the moment, and there are a lot of disability issues. Then I suddenly thought no come on you're complaining away but it's still probably worse for a disabled woman. And I just thought we should talk about that. Is it what? \par
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LIZ\tab Oh goodness, well it's very hard because I'm not a disabled man so I don't know but I guess it's all very hard being a disabled woman isn't it. I mean you've got all that pressure, all that pressure on how you should look. \par
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MAT\tab Men have got pressure too. \par
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LIZ\tab Well that's, you know, either talk about this trying for it not to sound like an essay, you know, on these are the finer points, but yeah I think there are huge, huge pressures more than ever on how you look, what you wear and all that stuff about having accessible clothing that's comfortable. \par
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MAT\tab Yeah. Then you put on top of that men have got to fashionable too and have moisturiser and have to care what they look like, whereas before they didn't have to care what they looked like. I suppose that's filtering down now to disabled men as well. \par
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LIZ\tab Yeah.\par
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MAT\tab So we've got that pressure too now. \par
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LIZ\tab But then I was reading something that was... \par
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MAT\tab To look alluring. \par
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LIZ\tab There's a film out in the UK called 'Made in Dagenham'. \par
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MAT\tab Yeah I've seen that. \par
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LIZ\tab Yeah about the equal pay act. \par
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MAT\tab That's right yes. \par
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LIZ\tab And I'm thinking and there was a question today in the papers sort of saying has anything changed for women, are they still paid the same as men and of course in things like Wimbledon they're not, and as presenters they're not earning different things.\par
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MAT\tab What you mean you get less than me? \par
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LIZ\tab Yes I do. \par
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MAT\tab You're kidding. \par
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LIZ\tab I only get tuppence. No I don't... \par
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MAT\tab But I get \'a34,000 a second. \par
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LIZ\tab No this isn't a Chris Moyles moment where I go, the UK presenter is going, "I didn't get paid" no it's not that. \par
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MAT\tab I'm glad it's not a Chris Moyles moment because I'm not a big fan of that gentleman. However, if he was disabled I'd be a little more understanding of his inadequacies. \par
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LIZ\tab But what I'm thinking is if women still aren't getting paid equally, and they're not...\par
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MAT\tab And they should be. \par
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LIZ\tab Then that's going to reflect on disabled women, so we've got that, not double burden, but if you know what I mean?\par
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MAT\tab Ah the double burden. The double burden not enough to have the curse every month is it. Actually that's a point. \par
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LIZ\tab Oh don't go about that let's not talk about that. \par
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MAT\tab What my mother calls the curse. \par
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LIZ\tab Eh, eh getting a PA to put a tampon in. Oh dear I don't think so. \par
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MAT\tab Well I was at a workshop, well I shouldn't have been at the workshop, for thalidomide, yes I'm back listeners! \par
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LIZ\tab Oh are we going to talk about thalidomide I wish I had my thalidomide bell \endash  kerching!\par
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MAT\tab Flipper, flipper, flipper, flipper and they put them in with their feet if they've got short arms. \par
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LIZ\tab Really? Have you seen the amount that my legs bend?\par
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MAT\tab Actually yes that's a good point. \par
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LIZ\tab You'd need like a three foot tampon. Sorry I'll move on.\par
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MAT\tab Dot, dot on that I think. Yes can we not talk about... \par
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LIZ\tab I always, you know what, growing up and moving was really tough and reaching I was very sore, I was very stiff, I wasn't very well. And I used to think that being a man must be great because going to the toilet was such a hassle that I thought, you know, if you can just... \par
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MAT\tab All right, well let's talk about it we're all adults here. \par
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LIZ\tab Yeah. Well... \par
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MAT\tab It's actually quite hard to stand up undo the bits get out what needs to be got out, point it in the right direction, get everything that needs to leave your body to go in the receptacle required and then put it all back without making a mess. \par
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LIZ\tab Yeah but if you're a disabled guy and you can't move can't you just whip it out, get it into a bottle and do it there and then. Whereas if you're a woman you've got to sort of crouch down and get it right under do you know what I'm saying? \par
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MAT\tab Well I don't know about the listening chaps but I've always found it rather hard to get mine into the neck of a beer bottle. \par
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LIZ\tab But you see you do that I have so many disabled mates, I have one mate in particular that usually has a bottle of what I used to think was ginger ale at the side... \par
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MAT\tab Uh ho!\par
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LIZ\tab ... of his sofa. \par
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MAT\tab Don't drink the ginger ale at his house. \par
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LIZ\tab No it's not. It's like "Oh my god". \par
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MAT\tab Don't drink the warm lager I know. \par
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LIZ\tab No wonder I don't drink. \par
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MAT\tab I think that probably is more difficult though because you've got more gubbins. \par
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LIZ\tab Unless you get a SheWee one of those things. \par
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MAT\tab A SheWee?\par
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LIZ\tab Yeah I'm sure that there are other assistive weeing as a woman things to buy on the market but they are... \par
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MAT\tab Whoa I'm trying to get it above the trouser line here, above the belt line. \par
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LIZ\tab Oh okay. \par
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MAT\tab Can I add a module? \par
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LIZ\tab Go on. \par
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MAT\tab Homosexuality. \par
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LIZ\tab I knew you'd... I knew. \par
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MAT\tab Because I've got a bit of a bugbear. \par
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LIZ\tab Okay. \par
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MAT\tab Okay and I'm going to say it like I think it... \par
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LIZ\tab Go on. \par
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MAT\tab ... hopefully not being offensive to any communities listening, okay. \par
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LIZ\tab The fact that you just said 'communities' why don't you use the word 'issues' and get it all out there, go on. \par
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MAT\tab Right. I think it's been my limited experienced observation in life that one of the most accepting communities of disability have been gay women, and one of the least accepting communities of disabilities have been gay men. \par
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LIZ\tab How do you mean?\par
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MAT\tab Discuss. \par
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LIZ\tab I'm not quite sure what you mean \endash  least accepted by other people? \par
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MAT\tab No. So I find gay women often are... I have seen a lot of gay women who are having relationships with disabled gay women. And I've seen very few gay men who have relationships with disabled men. \par
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LIZ\tab Oh why do you think that is? \par
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MAT\tab Don't know a part of the culture maybe I don't know. Would you agree or not? \par
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LIZ\tab I don't know. You've really got me thinking now. \par
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MAT\tab Listeners, we need your opinions on that one. \par
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LIZ\tab Do you think that's true, yeah.\par
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MAT\tab So I don't want to be, I'm not you know I know I live in London where there's a higher proportion of out gay people on the streets than there might be in your small village etc. Sorry I said village and gay in the same sentence, I didn't mean to. What's wrong? Oh you've got chocolate flecks on your knuckle.\par
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LIZ\tab I'm drinking a hot chocolate as we're having this discussion, listeners, and it actually looks like I've got poo... \par
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MAT\tab Don't say it. \par
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LIZ\tab ... everywhere. It looks like an incontinent dream. I'm just licking it off so that's fine. Anyway, no if you are the only gay disabled person in the village let us know, let us know what that's like. I have no idea it's an interesting one. I'm thinking when I tell my mum that I was going out with a woman she said to me, is this a consequence of being disabled and you don't get the same opportunity. That's what I thought you were going to say, I think it's an interesting one that sometimes if you're gay and disabled people's assumption is you're that way because you couldn't get somebody of your own...\par
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MAT\tab There's such a flurry of issues all swirling around this I feel it's important to remind the listeners that if you do want to comment it's ouch@bbc.co.uk thanks very much.\par
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LIZ\tab Have I got any chocolate around my mouth? The Ouch Talk Show is available from the 麻豆社 website as a podcast. If you have iTunes, Juice or any other podcast software you can subscribe to our feed and have it downloaded to your computer or mp3 player every time a new show becomes available. It's so easy. Go to bbc.co.uk/podcast and you'll find us under entertainment. \par
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MAT\tab ENTERTAINMENT! So the 麻豆社 thinks disability's entertaining do they? That's outrageous I'm going to write to an MP. \par
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LIZ\tab Rob Crossan's here with this month's disability news. Hello, Rob. \par
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ROB\tab Hello Liz. Hello Mat. \par
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MAT\tab Hi. \par
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ROB\tab I do want to do the news but I just wanted to tell you a little albino anecdote. \par
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LIZ\tab Really?\par
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MAT\tab Oh great. \par
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LIZ\tab Why would that be? \par
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ROB\tab Well it was the most bizarre interpretation of what albinism is that I've ever, ever encountered, it was fantastic. I was in the Czech Republic doing a travel story last week in a little town called Czechy Krumlov lots of... yeah it's the name. Lots of strange American coach parties buzzing around and I got collared by one in a coffee shop while I was trying to order some dumplings and fend off a prostitute... \par
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LIZ\tab As is common in the Czech Republic. \par
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ROB\tab Yeah that's the way I play the game anyway. And they came over to me and we had started talking and they saw me looking at the menu very, very closely. And they said, "Is there something wrong with your eyes?" And I said, "Well yeah I'm an albino." And their initial first question was, "Isn't it awful not being able to eat meat?" And it took a while to figure out why on earth they made this connection but it turns out that they obviously knew that rabbits had albinos... rabbits can be albinos, rabbits being vegetarians they therefore thought that human beings albinos were also non carnivorous. \par
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MAT\tab Oh I thought it was their rather uneducated assumption from the American culture that if you don't eat lots of red meat you become an albino. \par
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ROB\tab What it actually comes over time? \par
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MAT\tab Yeah. \par
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ROB\tab After being a student and eating pot noodles.\par
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MAT\tab Peddled by the beef industry in America. \par
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ROB\tab Well that would have been probably more forgivable if they'd said that. But the idea that somehow because rabbit albinos eat lettuce therefore only I can eat lettuce. \par
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MAT\tab Did the prostitute then turn to them and say, "He's not a rabbit look at his dumplings."\par
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ROB\tab "He wants meat can't you tell." Anyway it was a peculiar experience and yeah it made me... my opinion of Americans is never high but ((0:09:41.8?)) to new depths. \par
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MAT\tab There is an American that we all as disabled people respect and hold on high as a deity, Mr Stevie Wonder, and apparently you've got a story about him. \par
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ROB\tab I do. Well this is the strange trajectory of Stevie Wonder's political targets for becoming more and more cranky over the decades. If you remember some of his music from the early '70s there was 'You Haven't Done Nothing' real good black panther consciousness kind of stuff. Then also in the '80s it was 'Don't Drive Drunk' and now... \par
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MAT\tab He should talk. \par
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ROB\tab Yeah, what the driving or the drinking? \par
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MAT\tab Both. \par
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ROB\tab Probably the driving I would say. \par
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MAT\tab He's well known. \par
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ROB\tab Well known boozer. \par
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MAT\tab No driver. \par
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ROB\tab And now he did a talk at the World Intellectual Property Organisational Conference, a couple of weeks ago, not very rock & roll where he went on a bit of a rant about the fact that so many copyright laws are in place which means that people can't get accessible books, i.e., audio book translations and things like that. And he threatened that if they don't do something about it and relax these copyright laws so that more books can be made accessible to blind and visually impaired people he's going to write a song about it. \par
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LIZ\tab Oh I can't wait to listen to that. \par
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MAT\tab Hold on! Hold your horses. \par
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LIZ\tab Wow!\par
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ROB\tab [singing]  I'll be strong...\par
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MAT\tab To say what? \par
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ROB\tab Yeah. [singing] "Can I have some accessible reading material?" \par
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MAT\tab No. \par
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ROB\tab It doesn't quite stand does it? \par
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MAT\tab No. But like at Glastonbury recently, didn't he not do a massive rant about rights for disabled people and access. \par
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ROB\tab Yeah he went on one. \par
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MAT\tab He's got really ranty in his old age. \par
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ROB\tab Well it annoys me because I think there's a lot of parallels, and stay with me on this one, there's a lot of parallels between him and David Blunkett who when Stevie Wonder was at the peak of his powers in the '70s like when David Blunkett was at the peak of his political powers... \par
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MAT\tab Getting your point. \par
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ROB\tab ... didn't do disability, didn't do it, but now they're kind of past it a bit they're thinking oh it looks like there's a bit of a gap in the schedules maybe I can do a bit of disability stuff now. And you just kind of wonder... \par
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LIZ\tab Good point. \par
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ROB\tab ... how much more power or benefit could they have had to people with disabilities if Stevie had been going on about it in the '70s or David Blunkett had been going on about it in the late '90s rather than now. So yeah I think it's kind of a little too little too late. \par
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MAT\tab Banged to rights on that one. Banged to rights. Absolutely agree with you. \par
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LIZ\tab Love it. Rob, 'Robo Crip'? \par
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ROB\tab Oh this is brilliant. We'll have to put a video and some pictures of it on the website. \par
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MAT\tab I've got the picture here. \par
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ROB\tab You've got a picture already have you? Well this is the new Rex the exoskeleton.\par
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MAT\tab It looks so scary.\par
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ROB\tab It's terrifying isn't it, it's absolutely terrifying. It's basically a, well it's a real life pair of robotic legs. \par
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MAT\tab It looks, listeners, like a bloke in the massive-ist galoshes ever, doesn't it? \par
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ROB\tab Yeah. \par
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LIZ\tab Galoshes how English are you? Who's going to know that unless you've read Wind in the Willows nobody will know?\par
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MAT\tab Explain quickly explain galoshes, Liz, to the foreign listeners. \par
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LIZ\tab Aren't they like big boot things.\par
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MAT\tab That goes up to your bottom. \par
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ROB\tab You go fishing in them. You wade in them out into the river. \par
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MAT\tab Waders. Any sorry please I've interrupted, go on with the story. \par
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ROB\tab No, no, no it's quite alright it needed to be said. I'm so glad we can clarify the English Lexicon we interpret for foreign listeners. So basically there terrifying frankly pair of robotic legs enables people who can't walk to stand up, walk around and go up and down stairs very, very slowly should I add. This is the prototype it was invented in New Zealand and it's around in 2011. And Damon, the producer, told me Liz that you actually want one of these, which I find quite surprising because I thought you were a bit of a militant who thought that sitting down's better than standing up. \par
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LIZ\tab Yeah. But don't you think it would be cool to be like a human transformer?\par
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ROB\tab I've never wanted to be a human transformer. \par
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LIZ\tab Really? \par
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ROB\tab It looks so heavy. And just imagine the amount of staring you'd get I just can't be doing with it. \par
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MAT\tab You've gone from four wheels good, two legs bad to two legs better. Just like Napoleon the pig in Animal Farm.\par
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ROB\tab ... the biggest Orwellian dystopia that Liz Carr inhabits. \par
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LIZ\tab But can you imagine people's look. I mean you said you wouldn't want to be stared at, I mean use it for the novelty and use it for the freak value rather than oh I'd like to get from A to B, oh my goodness isn't this amazing. \par
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MAT\tab I'm just getting a message from the producer in my ears, sorry, Rob apparently you're banging your oversized, if I may say, elbows on the table and it's disturbing... \par
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ROB\tab It's not me!\par
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MAT\tab Well it's not me my elbows don't even reach the table. \par
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LIZ\tab No. Look I'm going to do mine now okay, this is mine. \par
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MAT\tab Liz's elbows on the table. \par
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LIZ\tab Okay my bony little bows. \par
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MAT\tab Right. Now followed by the thalidy little ones. \par
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ROB\tab And now followed by an able bodied elbow. \par
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LIZ\tab There you go, point made! Flaunting your strength in front of us. Look at you.\par
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MAT\tab The table's cracked. \par
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ROB\tab I can see me crush a Dundee cake with my bare hands, it's amazing. \par
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MAT\tab Anyway, back to robo cop, crip. \par
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ROB\tab Robo Crip the Rex the exoskeleton. Yeah it's going to be available next year.  \par
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MAT\tab How much? \par
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ROB\tab Doesn't say. A lot I would imagine.  \par
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LIZ\tab Every child will want one for Christmas I'm telling you. \par
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ROB\tab It's one of those things that you can imagine being really good fun in an addition of Robot Wars or... \par
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LIZ\tab that's it. \par
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ROB\tab ... maybe for a kind of fun thing to do like a segway, you know something fun to play around on a stag do. \par
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LIZ\tab He died didn't he? \par
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ROB\tab Who? \par
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LIZ\tab The segway... \par
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MAT\tab The segway guy. \par
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ROB\tab The segway guy. \par
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LIZ\tab It's hysterical. \par
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ROB\tab That's his name. \par
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MAT\tab No the guy that invented the segway was testing out the off-road one, he went so far off road he went over the cliff and died. No it happened recently, it's true. \par
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LIZ\tab The segway... \par
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MAT\tab They're going to ban it. \par
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LIZ\tab ... you sort of stand on them and they wheel along. \par
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MAT\tab It's what the cops use in Chicago. \par
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LIZ\tab Like scooters aren't they? The best headline, I have to tell you this though, Rob, love your headlines I found one, it's not really disability related unless you think that Cliff Richard is disabled, and many would say he is, so he's 70 right? And he's just done a topless calendar for 2011. Apparently he does it all the time, right? \par
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ROB\tab Hold me back. \par
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LIZ\tab And he looks amazing, he's much like yourself, Mat, he looks really good for his age. And the headline was 'Muscle Tone and Wine'. \par
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ROB\tab Ooh you punmeister you. \par
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LIZ\tab Instead of 'Mistletoe and Wine'. \par
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ROB\tab Oh you've ruined it now. You don't explain it after, you're supposed to be a stand up comedian is that what you do?\par
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MAT\tab If the comedian has to explain the joke you know it's over. \par
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ROB\tab I just want to say, ladies and gentlemen, that was an idiom and it kind of ruins the gag, Liz. Back to school, back to school. \par
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MAT\tab It occurs to me that Rex, robo crip leggy thing is just another extreme sport from New Zealand isn't it? \par
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ROB\tab Well they love it don't they. That's what you want, you want to be able to bungee jump with a segway and an exoskeleton attached to you. This is what I would like to see most of all. \par
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LIZ\tab Oh but the weight that you'd have. \par
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ROB\tab Well you're probably not going to come back are you? \par
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MAT\tab I can't wait for the next James Bond film because they always use a new gadget in the film don't they? They'll be some reason why he can't use his legs and then he'll get into it gee, gee, gee, gee up the stairs. \par
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LIZ\tab You normally bring a scooter related or a benefit fraud story, Rob, I don't know if you saw that this week there was a bit of a clip that somebody took on their mobile phone of a guy in a mobility scooter carrying a roll of carpet width-ways\par
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MAT\tab I saw that on one of the tabloids yeah. \par
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LIZ\tab Yeah and it's like caused a huge... \par
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MAT\tab It's like twenty foot across isn't it?\par
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LIZ\tab Yes. He fills like the road with it. \par
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ROB\tab Even the most able bodied people would struggle. \par
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LIZ\tab Absolutely. \par
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ROB\tab Not that we're saying he's not able bodied, he clearly is. \par
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LIZ\tab And they're saying that the normal rules for road haulage don't apply to scooters. \par
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ROB\tab Well that's just taking the, you know. \par
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LIZ\tab Is Rob staying with us Damon?\par
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MAT\tab I hope so. \par
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LIZ\tab Damon? \par
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MAT\tab Dames?\par
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LIZ\tab We're asking the producer. Damon? \par
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MAT\tab Rob's got to go. \par
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LIZ\tab Is he staying?\par
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MAT\tab I wanted him to stay. I wanted you to stay. \par
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ROB\tab Yeah I know well we haven't bantered for ages have we?\par
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MAT\tab No it's nice to see you, you're looking well, married life suiting you? \par
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ROB\tab Ha I'm getting divorced. \par
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MAT\tab No wow! \par
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LIZ\tab Anyway see you next time, Rob. \par
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ROB\tab So on that bombshell. I'm not going out on that, no way. \par
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MAT\tab Okay. \par
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ROB\tab I've got to see a solicitor in an hour. \par
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MAT\tab Find something better quickly. You're really looking really healthy, Bob... um Bob!\par
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ROB\tab Bob?\par
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MAT\tab You've thrown me now. \par
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ROB\tab And the marriage is going great. \par
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MAT\tab No you are looking well though. \par
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ROB\tab Yeah thank you very much. \par
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MAT\tab Oi you pay attention!  If you have a question or predicament that's burning a hole in your brain and you'd like us to help then email the show now ouch@bbc.co.uk that's ouch@bbc.co.uk if you don't you might explode \endash  fact. \par
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LIZ\tab We have Shannon Murray with us. Hello, Shannon. \par
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SHANNON\tab Hello Liz. Hello Mat. \par
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MAT\tab Hi there. Gosh the glamour in the room just tripled exponentially.  \par
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LIZ\tab I know. Wheelchair using model that's what you were described as. Is that how you describe yourself, Shannon? \par
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SHANNON\tab It's not the first thing that comes to mind, no. I can think of many words to describe myself but I don't think I'll say them on air. \par
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MAT\tab I've got a question for you. \par
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SHANNON\tab Oh God yes. \par
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MAT\tab It's an email from Josie and I think you can help. "Dear Ouch team, when it is proper to go barefoot in a wheelchair? I'll take advice from anyone please." \par
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SHANNON\tab Okay. \par
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MAT\tab Burning issue this one isn't it? \par
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LIZ\tab Really it is. \par
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SHANNON\tab Yeah. I think that can vary from disability to disability. It depends does she have pressure marks that she might get from the footplate on her chair because that's always a consideration when you go barefoot in a chair. \par
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MAT\tab What a cosmetic consideration like what it looks like or is it how it feels or something or is it dangerous? \par
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SHANNON\tab It depends if she's got sensation because a lot of footplates are metal and some of them have screws in them. So if you've got no sensation and you've got your feet bare on the footplate all day you can end up with a pressure mark that you're not aware of. So that would then lead to obviously a few other issues you don't want to consider. \par
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MAT\tab So it's a health thing. \par
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SHANNON\tab That's a health thing. Cosmetically it also depends what your feet look like, have you had a pedicure recently or are they full of calluses and hard skin. \par
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LIZ\tab But, Shannon, right you know what I'm thinking and I don't know if this is what our listener means, you know those cripples that just wear socks, okay, they don't wear shoes. \par
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MAT\tab Why wear shoes you're never going to use them. \par
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LIZ\tab Well no exactly. \par
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SHANNON\tab No but there are certain people who, you know, because of their disability their feet might not get into a shoe, so they have to wear the socks. \par
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LIZ\tab Oh there's always a shoe big enough isn't there \endash  a specially made one. \par
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SHANNON\tab I don't know. I've seen some... \par
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LIZ\tab Really? \par
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SHANNON\tab ... where they wear big thick socks for a reason. \par
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MAT\tab Doctor Martens, oh sorry branding. Big boots that are popular. \par
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SHANNON\tab Yeah but some people have got slightly, slightly misshapen feet that can't get into a shoe so they have to wear a big thick sock. \par
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MAT\tab Okay. I mean... \par
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SHANNON\tab Otherwise they're going to get cold feet or they might bang their foot. \par
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MAT\tab But some of them might not feel how cold the foot is though.\par
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SHANNON\tab Yeah that doesn't mean they're not going to end up with problems later that could end up getting them to hospital. \par
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MAT\tab Another health issue. \par
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SHANNON\tab Exactly. It's the health issues. \par
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LIZ\tab There's a listener from Australia, Stella Young, I don't know if you know Stella, \par
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MAT\tab Stella!\par
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SHANNON\tab Well she's going to have warmth so she can go barefoot whenever she likes. \par
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LIZ\tab Well no, no she was saying... \par
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MAT\tab You say that but... \par
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LIZ\tab This is true. But she was saying, she was commenting the other day on Facebook that she had seen somebody, a wheelchair user in one of those, what do you call them, like sleeping bag all in one cosy little thing.\par
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SHANNON\tab Oh God those things that go over you in a chair that makes you look like a baby in a pram. \par
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LIZ\tab Yeah. And she said... \par
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MAT\tab Or a worm.\par
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LIZ\tab ... she said and don't even get me started on those cripples that just wear socks. \par
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MAT\tab But you're a model, Shannon, you should know about this, what do you say about it? \par
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SHANNON\tab I just think you wear whatever suits you and if you can wear something that suits you and looks good then great bonus. But if you have to wear something because your feet might be slightly misshapen or twisted and won't go into a shoe then your disability and comfort's got to come first. \par
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MAT\tab I'm going to play crip cop. \par
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SHANNON\tab If you can look good... \par
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MAT\tab I'm playing crip cop so you're saying you can only wear barefoot if your feet look normal?\par
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SHANNON\tab No I'm not saying 'normal' what's the definition of a normal foot?\par
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LIZ\tab It is actually what you meant though. \par
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SHANNON\tab I've actually got a foot phobia...\par
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LIZ\tab Wow!\par
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SHANNON\tab ... I can't stand feet, I hate feet. Feet anywhere near me freaks me out so I... \par
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LIZ\tab Is that because you can't feel yours?\par
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SHANNON\tab No this is before my accident. \par
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LIZ\tab Oh wow!\par
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SHANNON\tab I just hate feet. I hate my own feet, however, I do make sure that they look as good as they can with a bit of decent nail varnish. \par
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LIZ\tab Do you have a ring? \par
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SHANNON\tab Sorry? \par
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MAT\tab Steady on it's the 麻豆社 girls, come on. \par
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SHANNON\tab A ring on any of my toes? \par
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LIZ\tab Yes have you ever done that and done the jewellery thing?\par
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SHANNON\tab No that's a bit bohemian and also if I had one that was too tight and it was on the toe and I couldn't feel it it could cut off the circulation and I could end up with a pressure sore. \par
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LIZ\tab Okay. \par
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SHANNON\tab Again medical. \par
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LIZ\tab I was thinking foot jewellery. \par
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SHANNON\tab But I'll go sandals, stilettos, the works \par
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MAT\tab I'm warning you now I'm going under the table... \par
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SHANNON\tab You're getting our feet out aren't you? \par
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MAT\tab ... to have a quick look. No I'm not going to get my feet out. \par
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SHANNON\tab But I've got boots on. \par
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MAT\tab I'm going to have a look at yours. \par
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SHANNON\tab I've got boots on, you can't see them. \par
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MAT\tab Listeners, I'm under the table. \par
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LIZ\tab Oh no.\par
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MAT\tab And all I'm describing a lovely pair of shapely NORMAL looking feet with BOOTS.\par
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SHANNON\tab Is that a crime? Am I going to be arrested by robo crip now coming in going boom, boom. \par
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MAT\tab Boy you'd be terrified by that. \par
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SHANNON\tab  I would. \par
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MAT\tab How long have you been a model, Shannon? \par
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SHANNON\tab Since '94 so probably about 16 years now. \par
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MAT\tab And I can honestly say, because I can remember when you started, you look better and better every time I see you. \par
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SHANNON\tab Thank you. I wasn't really prepared for that compliment. Thank you.\par
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MAT\tab No I'm not trying to get off with you. \par
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SHANNON\tab Oh!\par
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MAT\tab I'm all right, thanks. So easy.\par
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SHANNON\tab That's I guess like fine wine maturing with age and good living possibly. \par
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MAT\tab Yeah. You're a beautiful woman whereas you were a pretty girl before.\par
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LIZ\tab Now it's all getting a bit weird. I feel a bit like a gooseberry in the middle. You've been on the floor, been in front of it it's all a bit strange. \par
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MAT\tab Beautiful disabled lady. \par
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LIZ\tab Shannon, do you think it's easier for disabled men or disabled women we were talking about this earlier. \par
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SHANNON\tab You see I've had this argument with some people as well because girlfriends of mine who are also wheelchair users, we've always said we reckon it's easier to be a disabled woman. \par
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LIZ\tab Okay. \par
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SHANNON\tab Because you haven't got to worry about that whole kind of machismo trying to be... \par
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MAT\tab That's what I was trying to say. \par
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SHANNON\tab ... butch masculine man. And also I quite... because I'm quite fiercely independent and strong minded I like occasionally being able to give that up to somebody who I think is big enough and bold enough to control that, they can carry me upstairs \endash  all those kind of things. Then obviously if you're a guy and you can't do that then I think maybe does that make you kind of feel psychologically somewhat diminished. Though when I've spoken to disabled guys they think it's worse for women because they reckon as guys you're less likely to want to take onboard a disabled woman and they think women are more caring, therefore, they'll go out with a disabled guy. \par
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LIZ\tab Yeah. \par
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SHANNON\tab  So I just think there's no way to agreeing it. \par
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MAT\tab Similar to my insertion previously yes it's a raging issue and I'm sure we'll hear a lot... \par
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SHANNON\tab But it's like that issue with... \par
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MAT\tab ... from the listeners.\par
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SHANNON\tab It's like is it better to acquire a disability or be born with...  \par
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LIZ\tab It's one of them isn't it? \par
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SHANNON\tab ... with a disability. \par
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LIZ\tab Ah no you've just stopped next month's discussion. Ah the producer's crying, he's weeping. And December it'll be blind or deaf, which do you want?\par
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SHANNON\tab I'll come back in and do it again. \par
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MAT\tab It's a bit of a time for you at the moment isn't it, Shannon?\par
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SHANNON\tab Yeah. \par
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MAT\tab Because you're not only doing the autumn range for Debenhams but you've also been in that How To Look Good Naked thing. \par
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SHANNON\tab I did yes. Well that's what kicked it all off. I did a couple of episode of How To Look Good Naked, they were trying to find a disabled model who they could then bring to high street stores, ask the high street stores who's willing to take a disabled model on and use them in a campaign, and Debenhams said yes. So that's where it all sprung from. \par
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MAT\tab Oh so one came from the other. \par
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SHANNON\tab Yes\par
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MAT\tab How was that doing the Gok Wan show? \par
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SHANNON\tab It was really good fun. I didn't meet Gok until the very last episode. I'd been doing all the work with Natasha Wood and Nicki Fox who were brilliant fun. And we were like these three crazy blonds going round in wheelchairs just doing photo shoots, it was great. \par
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LIZ\tab Mat, you've done some modelling haven't you?\par
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MAT\tab I did a little modelling for Alexander McQueen, rest in peace, a few years ago yeah. Didn't enjoy it.\par
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SHANNON\tab You see I didn't get the McQueen gig. \par
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MAT\tab You should have got it. \par
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SHANNON\tab No apparently I didn't look disabled enough. \par
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LIZ\tab Wow but you did. Was it fun, did you enjoy it? \par
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MAT\tab Not really. \par
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LIZ\tab No?\par
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MAT\tab No I remember I had dry lips at one point.\par
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SHANNON\tab Didn't they give you any Vaseline for that?\par
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MAT\tab No they didn't. \par
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SHANNON\tab Oh. \par
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LIZ\tab For other things. \par
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MAT\tab You'd have thought there would have been some in the studio though. \par
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SHANNON\tab But that's the old trick you put Vaseline on your lips and on your teeth and that means you can always smile on TV. \par
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MAT\tab I know that now! I know that now but then I didn't. I had dry lips because I was nervous and at one point I've stuck my my ill-equipped little flipper finger into my mouth to rub the spit round my lips so it would look moistened, sufficiently moistened and they went "Oh that's great love it, keep the finger in the mouth, sexy, sexy." And I was like I don't want to do this, this is awful. \par
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LIZ\tab One finger maybe but not a whole flipper, do you know what I mean?\par
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MAT\tab Yes. \par
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SHANNON \tab A mouthful, a bit much.\par
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LIZ\tab That's something totally different. \par
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MAT\tab A mouthful's a bit much is it, Shannon? Okay well now we know. \par
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LIZ\tab Tell us about the campaign. So there you are, you're on billboards, you're in every store. \par
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SHANNON\tab Yeah it's been a bit weird. When they first did it in February it was just flagship stores to kind of test it and see what the response was. And then they received such positive response and there was so much press coverage that it then went into stores nationwide. I've only gone to see it once when I was asked by a film crew because I find it a little bit weird to stand next to a ten foot poster of myself. \par
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LIZ\tab And is this just the start do you think? Do you think that other shops now are going to go, "Actually it works, yes we want to be doing that" or...\par
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MAT\tab We want a disabled model for our one. \par
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SHANNON\tab If I was... \par
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MAT\tab Maybe I could talk to Ozwald Boeteng.  \par
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SHANNON\tab Yeah you see you could do little... \par
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MAT\tab It's never going to happen. \par
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SHANNON\tab You could do suits \par
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MAT\tab But the Principle range, the Principles range which is what it's called what happened about... \par
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SHANNON\tab That was the first one. \par
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MAT\tab Oh right. \par
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SHANNON\tab Well, Principles was a store that was on all the high streets and then it suffered some financial difficulties. And then Debenhams took control of it so that it's now only sold in Debenhams stores and it's designed... \par
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MAT\tab But is it all russet scarves and gloves?\par
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SHANNON\tab No. \par
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MAT\tab And like oak leaves in the background. \par
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SHANNON\tab No russet isn't really on trend for this season, darling, it's camel and leopard print. \par
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LIZ\tab Oh not good for me I'm a winter. \par
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MAT\tab Are you a winter?\par
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LIZ\tab Hm with my colour. Shannon, while you're here we were wondering if you would do a bit of a voiceover thing for us, a little bit of an advert for the trail\par
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SHANNON\tab Can I do it in a kind of Mariella Frostrup kind of sexy, husky voice? \par
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MAT\tab You already have a sexy voice you don't have to try. \par
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LIZ\tab Yeah. You can see we've got three for you there. \par
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SHANNON\tab Okay. \par
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LIZ\tab And you can see which one. Like the top one we kind of like. \par
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MAT\tab Are you going to be director, Liz?\par
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LIZ\tab Maybe the top one. Yeah. Okay. \par
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MAT\tab You be the director, I'll be the producer, hold on. \par
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SHANNON\tab Oh my God the first one. \par
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MAT\tab Commission her now. Go do it now Liz. \par
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LIZ\tab Okay. The first one and we want it after three, and two and one.\par
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SHANNON\tab Hi, I'm the beautiful disabled model, Shannon Murray. If you want to be as lovely as me, even if you're in a wheelchair, then my advice is to listen regularly to the Ouch Talk Show. It'll help lift your self esteem and give you a clear, fresh, radiant skin just like mine. Rehabilitate your ears by going to bbc.co.uk/ouch. \par
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LIZ\tab The producer's going "Oh my God that's sounds amazing. She sounds like Joanna Lumley." \par
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MAT\tab That's going to keep me going for about a month that one. \par
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SHANNON\tab I can't believe I just said that. \par
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LIZ\tab You're very blushed now. \par
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SHANNON\tab I'm so blushed, oh my God. \par
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LIZ\tab You're not the only one in the studio by the looks of things that is. \par
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SHANNON\tab Oh my God. \par
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LIZ\tab Shannon, we're going to have to say goodbye to you. \par
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MAT\tab What a shame. \par
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SHANNON\tab I don't want to go I like it here. \par
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LIZ\tab You've been fantastic. Thank you for joining us. \par
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SHANNON\tab Thank you. \par
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LIZ\tab And I have a feeling you'll be back. \par
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MAT\tab Yeah. You can come back any time. \par
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SHANNON\tab If you guys need a holiday I'm perfectly happy to come and take over. \par
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LIZ\tab Absolutely. \par
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MAT\tab Okay cool, good to know. \par
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LIZ\tab The production team this month were Damon Rose, Dan Slipper and Tony Baker. But guess what, we are back in two weeks \endash  yes look out for us on the website or in your iTunes podcast list. For now goodbye!\par
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MAT \tab Goodbye! \par
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SHANNON\tab Bye!\par
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[Jingle playing out]\par
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}