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THIS TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.Ìý BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE Â鶹Éç CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.Ìý

IN TOUCH – Careers in Broadcasting

TX:Ìý 21.11.2017Ìý 2040-2100

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PRESENTER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý PETER WHITE

PRODUCER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý CHERYL GABRIEL

White

Good evening. Tonight, we meet a young video blogger who at only 21 has already made a huge name for herself and who’s now looking to get into more traditional broadcasting as well. ÌýAnd I’ll be introducing her to our second studio guest, who has a long established record in broadcasting. ÌýThey’ll be comparing notes.

Ìý

But let’s start with Lucy – Lucy Edwards. ÌýNow Lucy has her own channel on YouTube, where she gives her opinions and advice on a whole range of things – living with blindness.Ìý She gets thousands of views, which is not bad going for someone who lost her sight almost completely less than four years ago. ÌýLet’s just start with hearing a flavour of what she does:

Clip – Lucy’s vlog

I want to just come on here and tell you guys that I didn’t used to want disabled friends, I didn’t use to want to even think about my disability and if I had someone at the other end of YouTube saying look you need that in your life, you need to go and find people that genuinely understand you and have been through it too.Ìý I never thought that I would know the importance of that.

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White

And Lucy we’re going to come back to that later in the programme because it raises some very interesting issues.Ìý First of all though – how and why did you get into vlogging – that’s the correct term, you do call it vlogging yeah?

Ìý

Edwards

It is, video blogging.Ìý I really enjoy it.Ìý The first time I got into it was the age of 17 when I first lost my eyesight and I asked my boyfriend please could I be a YouTuber and you edit me.Ìý And it sort of became this coping mechanism to really try and connect with people on the internet who were like me, I thought there was no one really out there offering blind and visually-impaired advice and I wanted to be that person.

Ìý

White

Had you done anything like that – because I know – I mean you lost your sight in stages, which obviously makes it difficult – but I mean had you done it at all before you lost your sight?

Ìý

Edwards

I hadn’t.Ìý And it was kind of a thing where it became a dream of mine – the non-sighted Lucy part of me became a presenter in a way.

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White

What do you need to get started, give me a very quick users’ guide?

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Edwards

I need two soft spotlights, which just frame your fame really nicely, and it’s just easier for me as a non-sighted person to just put the lights in a certain place, put the camera in a sighted place and go.Ìý And sometimes I even click the camera and the tripod without my boyfriend being there.Ìý So yeah camera, lights, tripod, tick list.

Ìý

White

Did it not occur to you just to do audio, given that you were a blind person?

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Edwards

Well that’s the thing.Ìý I wanted to smash stereotypes Peter and you wouldn’t think that a blind girl could be on the internet on a video platform, so that’s what I wanted to do.

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White

Now most people who experience losing sight, certainly a lot of those that we’ve talked on the programme also tend to say they lose confidence.Ìý That doesn’t seem to have happened in your case, how come?

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Edwards

No, it was this out of body experience really where I just thought I either can let this sight loss define me and not fight it, in a way, or I can come out of myself, prove to people that sight loss doesn’t hold you back and I can get on the internet and tell everyone how great you can still be, how fashionable, how much make up you can put on and you can be like just everyone else.

Ìý

White

But you can’t have done that straightaway surely, I mean you must – that makes it sound too simple.

Ìý

Edwards

Yeah no I know what you mean.Ìý But I think I was doing all of this in the midst of trying to cope with it.Ìý So those videos that I did were very, very important to me because it kept me grounded and kept me – my sense of self when going through my sight loss.

Ìý

White

You did lose your sight in stages, can you just explain the timetable, if you like?

Ìý

Edwards

Yes definitely.Ìý So the timetable was at the age of eight I was rushed to the eye hospital after a routine eye check, no one knew what was going on with me, it was diagnosed as Incontinentia Pigmenti, which is a rare genetic condition that presents itself in people’s skin first of all, it’s the female line of my genetics, and it’s a recessive gene.Ìý So it’s very, very rare to go in someone’s eyes.Ìý And then at the age of 11 it developed and I lost my right eye to it and then at the age of 17 I was plunged into darkness and it was just terrible, I was in the middle of my A Levels and it was just one of the saddest times and that’s why I took up this vlogging to have some light in my life.

Ìý

White

Now you explained some of the equipment you use but that doesn’t quite explain how you actually get yourself established in the way that you did, I mean how did you do that?

Ìý

Edwards

So it’s all about tagging Peter, definitely.Ìý I came up with the title Blind Girl Does Her Own Makeup, it was very instrumental in getting the clicks on that video.Ìý I think Blind Girl and Makeup on a video – everyone wants to know about it really.

Ìý

White

So you were deliberately peeking people’s interest.Ìý And was this more aimed at sighted people than other blind people?

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Edwards

Yeah, so some of my videos are aimed at sighted, some non-sighted, but this specific video was aimed at sighted people, to educate because I want to educate and inform as well as have a community on my channel.

Ìý

White

So where’s this all leading Lucy, where do you see this going?

Ìý

Edwards

I really want to grow my channel even further, I would love to make a name for myself on the internet a bit more, even more, and I would love to be a professional presenter at the Â鶹Éç, that is my goal.

Ìý

White

Right, so you’re doing an unashamed advert for yourself?

Ìý

Edwards

Yeah totally, yeah.

Ìý

White

Well in this case and on this programme that is permissible and also with me in the studio is Â鶹Éç reporter and programme maker Sean Dilley, now Sean’s also worked for a number of other media outlets as well. Sean, just give us a very quick idea of some of the things that you’ve done.

Ìý

Dilley

I started off in radio actually, I have a huge love of radio, so working very briefly at Â鶹Éç Essex, very long time ago, for three months.Ìý Then I did commercial radio, initially as a producer, moved into on-air reporting and worked in the House of Commons for eight years, from there pretty much any media organisations I either appeared on it or made content for them.Ìý Moving to Sky News in 2014 as a general reporter, a week under two years from then moved on to the Â鶹Éç.

Ìý

White

In that time did you have problems – because you’d done a range of things – did your visual-impairment crop up as an issue?

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Dilley

Yeah oh yes, yeah.Ìý I find – listen I think there are some fantastic schemes out there now to make things adaptive and adaptable.Ìý I’m not sure in all good conscience I could fully recommend broadcasting to people who are blind or severely sight impaired.Ìý Not for any reason beyond the fact – because it is the best job in the world in so many ways – but you’re constantly having to prove yourself.

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White

I’m not going to try and butt in every time because I’m not going to be the professional broadcaster here, except to say that the trouble is when people ask you how do you get in there’s not a route that you can explain, there isn’t – it has not got a structure – broadcasting – on the whole, there are schemes but on the whole people don’t go in a neat line do they?

Ìý

Dilley

Well no and also I think part of the reason Peter is that journalism and broadcasting, although they meet, they’re not always precisely the same thing and again it’s a personal view.Ìý You’ll get some reporters who love the broadcast side of it, they want to do really clever TV imagery, which we should all do and I love TV imagery.Ìý And you’ll get others who think okay I really like the digging and the investigating.

Ìý

White

And just before we bring you two together, do you think that what Lucy’s doing, the vlogging idea, and blogging for that, do you think this is a good area for visually-impaired people generally with ambitions to get into?

Ìý

Dilley

I absolutely do, it’s possible to do fairly basic video editing to intermediate video editing on some software packages and indeed I’ve been up to Salford with a blind colleague to teach them a video editing package using shortcut keys as well.Ìý

Ìý

White

So you’re saying you could video edit with no sight?

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Dilley

You can video edit with no sight to a degree.Ìý So if you want to start sticking subtitles on there then you need help to move the boxes into the right place but yes.

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White

Right, Lucy, you’ve already got your foot in the door at the Â鶹Éç, you’re currently working as a news apprentice with the disability website Ouch!Ìý This is your chance, we’ve got Sean here as a sitting target for you what would you like to ask him?

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Edwards

I would love to ask you how do you cope, in terms of accessibility, in your current job?

Ìý

White

Do you mean in terms of what literally getting everywhere?

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Edwards

Yes and also the tech side, because obviously I’m coming to it from a new perspective and just coming – I’m only a month in.

Ìý

Dilley

I think I understand what you’re saying and it is difficult and I think we’re lucky because of where we currently work.Ìý In the industry more generally it’s entirely variable because not everybody has the same reasonable adjustments, budgets, not everybody has the same sort of willingness and keenness to be inclusive.Ìý So on the tech side very variable.Ìý I’ve worked at places where news wires are not entirely accessible and I’ve worked at places where they’re generally much better about things but you chase round forever to get a bit of technology.Ìý More generally, to finish my rather long answer, I’m kind of a field reporter.Ìý Earlier this year I went knocking on the door of somebody we suspected had been a little bit naughty and that was interesting from an accessibility and risk assessment point of view because we were – we had to prepare for the fact is this person going to come out and want to hit me a bit.Ìý

Ìý

White

Do they use the argument, which I mean I used to use the argument they’re less likely to hit me therefore I’m a good person to send – have you used that or is that a self-deprecating argument that we shouldn’t encourage?

Ìý

Dilley

I think it would be an interesting one to send to what we call the high risk safety people.Ìý

Ìý

White

We didn’t have high risk safety people when I was a young reporter.

Ìý

Dilley

No this is true.Ìý No I think it’s always going to have to be something we’re realistic about.Ìý So, for instance, and I’ve been asked this an awful lot – I would never be a reporter in a war zone for one simple reason – I would be a liability.Ìý However, in my current job and previous job I’ve done an awful lot of going round with people catching criminals and I mean on the glamorous things sometimes I’m talking about Cyril the Squirrel from Sheffield, so let’s not say it’s all James Bond.Ìý But I think you have to be fair to your colleagues and considerate.Ìý But then I think colleagues should be respectful and ask you before making decisions about you without you.

Ìý

White

I mean Lucy is this the kind of thing that you’ve got in mind or – I mean what kind of areas would you want to specialise in?

Ìý

Edwards

I love journalism and the way that I’ve been introduced to it.Ìý The way that my scheme operates is I’m grounded in journalism and working with the podcast Ouch! and to be honest it’s allowing me to expand my skillset and that’s what I’m looking for at the moment.Ìý Eventually I’ll want to go into presenting a bit more but that’s what I’m leaning towards and that’s what my boss is allowing me to do and it’s very much in your hands and they really listen to you.Ìý So I’m a massive advocate for it.

Ìý

White

We talked about Sean the extent to which you’re at a disadvantage or the extent to which people may doubt your ability to do it.Ìý I mean do you think there is a problem in terms of the way interviews are done?

Ìý

Dilley

I’ve probably had about 40 interviews, 50 interviews and I’ve not passed one of them.Ìý Which is interesting.

Ìý

White

So you’ve gone for what you might call fixed jobs and you’ve not got them?

Ìý

Dilley

Lord yes absolutely.Ìý I’ve been for so many jobs over the years.Ìý And it’s interesting because actually in reality we’d be rather un-self-aware if we thought we were perfect for 40 jobs but then we’d have to be a little bit naïve to think that you’re unsuitable for all of the 40 jobs that you were shortlisted for interview.

Ìý

White

Lucy do you think that you’ve made a point really of saying I’m out there to question stereotypes?

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Edwards

Yes.

Ìý

White

Do you think that – what I’m wondering is how easily visually-impaired people can, as it were, doctor their image to be what other people want and indeed how much we should do that?

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Edwards

Definitely, I mean it is all about individuality and I think that’s what I promote on my channel and that’s what I want to tell the world that you can be whoever you want to be.Ìý And yes specifically I adjust my image because I love makeup, I feel that I don’t need a mirror anymore because I’m so confident in the way I apply my makeup and I control my appearance that way.Ìý But definitely my channel advocates to be who you want to be and I can be a blind girl on the internet who’s on a video platform because I want to be that.Ìý And if you want to be something different go for it.

Ìý

White

Lucy, I think we need to know a bit more about your personal story because it is quite interesting and this confidence thing is quite interesting.Ìý I mean you briefly, at the beginning, you mentioned your boyfriend, I think that’s been quite an important element hasn’t it in your – the way you’ve – people will feel you’ve bounced back from losing your sight.

Ìý

Edwards

Massively.Ìý I mean I have such a supportive boyfriend and family.Ìý I went blind two months into mine and my boyfriend’s relationship, we were only 16 at the time, and the fact that he stood next to me at such a young age I will never forget.Ìý And I think that’s what has really brought us together, this experience that we’ve had and it could tear some people apart but it’s brought us closer.Ìý At some points maybe not when I was being a bit grouchy, not knowing where something was, but we got through it and yeah.

Ìý

White

Let me be impertinent – were there any – were there points where it might have broken up, where he might have said this isn’t the girl I started going out with in a way?

Ìý

Edwards

Definitely, definitely Peter.Ìý There were times, about two years in to my blindness, that I thought I wasn’t myself anymore, I was on antidepressants, I didn’t really want to get out of bed, I had no ambition.Ìý And my boyfriend said to me – you know look Lucy you have to try and love yourself again because if you don’t love yourself how am I meant to love you. ÌýAnd there were those conversations.Ìý But I’m glad he gave me that ultimatum in a way because it told me I want to be a presenter, I’m going to dream big and do it and be the girl that he fell in love with.

Ìý

Dilley

Peter, I wonder whether I can be cheeky and ask you a question now Lucy.Ìý Why do you want to be a presenter?

Ìý

Edwards

Ooh.

Ìý

Dilley

Sorry I thought I’d throw you that one, I always ask people this – why?

Ìý

Edwards

Yeah.

Ìý

White

And I think you’ve got to be ready for anything in this business Lucy, so you’ve got to be ready for that question.

Ìý

Edwards

Yeah definitely.Ìý I love speaking to people, I love the fact that my voice is heard.Ìý I very much find my blindness at some points very frustrating and maybe like you I’m a little fish in a massive pond that isn’t really understood and I believe that if I get my voice out there and I’m heard it’s amazing.Ìý And also I love hearing other people’s stories and interviewing people.

Ìý

Dilley

Now you see that’s interesting Lucy because I mean again that’s more my side of things, so I like finding things out, I like bringing attention to things that shouldn’t be, like bogus charity collectors earlier in the year to abandoned 999 calls, which I think we did for the Today programme not too long ago.Ìý But actually hearing my voice – I mean you can hear my voice now, it’s not exactly too enticing...

Ìý

Edwards

It’s very nice, don’t put yourself down.

Ìý

Dilley

But look the things is what I say is I think it’s important to find the niche.Ìý I don’t think I’m a massive fish, I’m a carp, not a killer whale.Ìý But I do think it’s important to think of content and ideas, I think it’s good to bring ideas to the table.Ìý But I think it’s important to want to achieve something beyond being on TV or on the radio, is my two pennies worth.

Ìý

White

Except that I would say, you could have been really honest Lucy, and said what I would now say nearing the end of a career, I just like showing off, that’s why I wanted to be a presenter.Ìý And I think that’s actually true.

Ìý

Edwards

I love it.

Ìý

White

One thing we must do before we end is to go back to the clip we heard at the beginning because that was about the importance of mutual support that visually-impaired people can give to each other.Ìý So we’ve been talking about whether people might be prejudiced against you.Ìý The interesting thing about that is you now advocate having visually-impaired friends, which some of us may naturally have, but you not necessarily, you didn’t always think that did you?

Ìý

Edwards

No, in my school years, when I was going blind, I very much wanted to hide my cane, I didn’t want a guide dog, I was adamant that I was not having any visually-impaired friends and that was it.Ìý But now I’ve found friends with different disabilities on the Extend scheme, I feel so fulfilled.Ìý I also have a blind friend who lives in Hastings and we connect and I see her and it is the best thing.Ìý Not that I don’t value my boyfriend and all of the other sighted people in my life, because I feel like that is a part of me too, but it is so important, if anyone is listening to this, to have non-sighted and disabled friends.

Ìý

White

And Sean you work in a mainstream very competitive world, do you have other visually-impaired friends?

Ìý

Dilley

Yeah but I mean hot because they’re visually-impaired or blind, I mean my wife is incredibly capable and she is blind, she’s no optic nerves but gets out there, does the job and we have our little social circle of people, maybe I trained with another friends – eighteen and a half years ago with my first guide dog – I’m sounding old!

Ìý

White

One final bit of advice from you to Lucy, who’s starting out, she doesn’t sound as if she needs a lot but…

Ìý

Dilley

No she sounds more confident than I am.Ìý

Ìý

White

What would you say at what is still the start of her career?

Ìý

Dilley

Do you know what honestly I think it’s an amazing career and although I’m possibly cynical I think go out there, never be afraid to bring ideas to the table.Ìý And above all do something I probably haven’t enough – enjoy it, chill.

Ìý

White

That’s all that we’ve got time for.Ìý Lucy, thank you very much and we wish you the best of luck.

Ìý

Edwards

Thank you so much Peter and thank you Sean.

Ìý

White

And Sean, thank you for coming in.Ìý We want to hear from you with your reactions.Ìý If you’ve tried to vlogging or indeed blogging tell us about what you’ve done and how it’s been received.Ìý You can contact our action line for 24 hours after the programme on 0800 044 044, email intouch@bbc.co.uk or press contact us on our website, and that’s .Ìý And you can download tonight’s programme from there too.Ìý From me, Peter White, producer Cheryl Gabriel, Lucy and Sean, goodbye.

Ìý

Ìý

Ìý

Ìý

Ìý

Ìý

Ìýmore about what you’ve done.

You’re here partly to give Lucy some tips but first, what do you think about the route she going and what she’s done so far?

Do you think this is a good area for visually impaired people with ambitions to get into?

Peter: Lucy, you’ve already got your foot in the Â鶹Éç door. You’re currently working as a news apprentice with the Â鶹Éç disability website Ouch. What would you like to ask Sean?

(Sean and Lucy)

Peter: Sean, you’ve obviously done well and found work, but how easy has it been? How well have you been accepted?

Are there any particular pitfalls that Lucy should be aware of?

Peter: I’m going to come back to you two in a moment. But I want to introduce you to some reactions we’ve had from listeners to one of our recent programmes, which raised the issue of technology as a mixed blessing for us. Some fantastic innovations, but also the tendency to introduce design which has the effect of excluding visually impaired people, particularly the touch screen, which substitutes on equipment like washing machines and cookers, nice, clearly identifiable controls and replaces them with a flat screen, which has to be touched very precisely to operate it. Lorna Blakeney emailed us to say that when she moved house five years ago, she found that the hob in her new kitchen was electric. It was a smooth, featureless sheet of glass which had to be touched in precisely the right spots to operate. She tried using bump ons – tactile markings like braille to mark the right places, but they didn’t work as they stopped her finger from making contact with the glass. She then asked someone to put a small blob of clear nail varnish on the spots that had to be touched. She says it works perfectly. Of course the rings aren’t tactile either but they heat up very fast and it’s easy to feel where the heat is coming from and know where to place the pan. Sean and Lucy, what do you make of that?

Peter: we’ve also been contacted by Richard Prior, a former social worker but now retired. Richard’s worried about what he feels is the reduction of specialist support for blind people and he joins us on the line from his home in Cornwall. What’s the problem as you see it?

You spent your working life directing people towards support. Where do you now go for yours?

Peter: Richard Prior, thank you.

Peter: Lucy, one of your vlogs was about the importance of mutual support that visually impaired people give to each other and the advantage of having visually impaired friends. But you didn’t always think that, did you – what’s changed?

(Reaction from Sean)

Peter: Sean, you work in a mainstream, very competitive world. Do you have other visually impaired friendships?

Peter: That’s all we have time for for today. Lucy and Sean, many thanks and Lucy in particular, the best of luck – though you don’t look as if you’ll need it. we want to hear from you with your reactions. If you’ve tried vlogging, tell us about your vlog. You can contact our action line for twenty four hours after the programme on 0800 044044, email in touch at bbc dot co dot uk or press contact us on our website www.bbc.co.uk/intouch from where you can download tonight’s programme. From me, Peter White, producer Cheryl Gabriel and the team, goodbye.

Ìý