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27th January 2023

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – episode 37

Presented by Nikki Fox and Emma Tracey

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NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello everyone. I’m Nikki Fox and this is Access All on Â鶹Éç Sounds. And today I am with a legend, an icon.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m with you every week, Nikki, not just today.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ems, I’m sorry. I’ve got Huw Edwards next to me.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I mean, who is that person? Who is that person?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý She sits in every week.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý She sits in every week. What, she wanders in you mean?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý She wanders in and then she chips in a bit.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Emma what?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Emma Tracey.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Emma Tracey. Well, it’s really nice to be here. And can I just say, Emma, whoever you are, I’m pleased to be here in my status as an iconic broadcaster. Thank you very much.

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Theme tune.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s Access All, the Â鶹Éç’s weekly disability and mental health podcast. I’m Nikki Fox and I’m in London.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And in Edinburgh I’m Emma Tracey.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Coming up:

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’ve got friends who have depression who are very, very ashamed of it. I say to them, stop it.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’ll be speaking to Â鶹Éç newsreader, Huw Edwards, and we are so excited. We’re going to be talking to him about his career and his depression and how he deals with it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Also are you still shielding? Because many immunocompromised people are, and they feel that one particular drug might be the key that finally opens their front door. But the NHS aren’t presently funding it.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And we’ve got loads of messages from you, with some great feedback, so stay tuned. Shall we have a look at some of the messages we’ve been getting?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes please.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Let’s start with Lizzy. A couple of weeks ago when talking about how NHS issues are affecting disabled people we mentioned that in order to free up hospital beds the government is thinking about buying up care home beds and moving patients there until their care plans get sorted. Disabled social worker, Lizzy Jones, who got in touch via WhatsApp voice message, thank you Lizzy, she said she’s noticed a lot of unintentional abuse and neglect of residents. Here’s Lizzy about her concerns about the government’s care home solution:

LIZZY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý My concern is that the care home beds that are going to be bought up are going to be the ones that have beds, which are usually the ones where there are blocks on them by local authorities placing people in there because of concerns about quality. So, people are going to get placed in care homes where there are already massive concerns about the quality of care. My concern then is that they will get stuck in these places because the quality of care is not of a quality that seeks to provide re-ablement.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s an interesting point.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Very interesting.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And I’m sure a lot of people will have a lot to say about that solution, and let’s see what happens if it is brought into effect really.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We discussed it, didn’t we, on the pod about the whole lack of care worker situation that’s going on at the moment, and who was actually going to be able to look after people who get moved into these care home settings. There’s a lot to it, isn’t there?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. And sticking with care, Anne, hello Anne.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hi Anne.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý She says she listens to the pod because it’s helped with many of the conundrums of a disabled life.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I love that. Conundrums is a really good word, isn’t it?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It reminds me of the Countdown conundrum.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It does [hums Countdown theme tune]. Thank you Anne.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, she says that her husband should be paid a living wage after being assessed as being her full-time carer. She says making a legitimate and important job would actually help the social care crisis because you would have less carers coming in, and they wouldn’t be trying to work and get money and all that kind of stuff from elsewhere. And she also says that full-time carers could be really useful if unfortunately their, she says, charge dies, they could go into the social care industry because they have so much experience…

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý They’ve got the skills.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý …and stuff to give. And they’ve been told that they’re worthy and they’ve been paid a full wage. So, that’s an interesting take on it, Anne.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, we always get loads of feedback when we cover this subject. Lesley’s also got in touch with us about carer’s credit. What’s that, Emma?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s a non-means tested national insurance credit that you can claim for so that you don’t have holes in your national insurance record when it comes to getting your pension. You can apply for it if you’re caring for someone for 20 hours a week or over. And it’s for over 16 year olds, but people who aren’t getting state pension. I mean, there are other criteria, of course there are, but you can look those up by putting carer’s credit government website into your search bar thingamabob on your computer or on your phone. And it’s something that she says nobody ever told her about.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thingamabob job. Well, thank you so much. Please do get in touch with us, like our listeners have done this week, share your knowledge, that was good, and tell us your stories. Send us a WhatsApp message to this number 0330 123 9480, where you can also leave us a voice note. But remember begin your message with the word Access; that would be very much appreciated.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You can also email us at accessall@bbc.co.uk, find us on Twitter @Â鶹ÉçAccessAll, and last week we suggested you could get in touch with braille, by moon, BSL, ASL, ISL, telepathy.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Makaton.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, absolutely. But we’ve had no uptake on those alternative formats, not even a bad dream, and maybe you should try harder. Come on, get that telepathy going, lads.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Get hold of that carrier pigeon.

For many people the pandemic is still not over. One group known as the Forgotten 500,000 represents the half a million people across the UK, many of whom are still shielding, who have weakened immune systems, which mean they could become seriously ill or even die if they got COVID. Unfortunately vaccines just do not work for them.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý When a new antiviral treatment Evusheld was authorised for treatment in March 2022 these clinically vulnerable people saw a light at the end of the tunnel. But nearly a year after it was first authorised for use in the UK the treatment is still not available on the NHS, and patients have to go private and pay upwards of £2,000 per dose if they want it.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, we are joined today by one of the founders of the Forgotten 500,000 campaign, Mark Oakley, and Paul Howard, CEO of Lupus UK, which is also calling on the government to make Evusheld available. Hello both of you.

MARK-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hi.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you so much for coming in.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you for having us.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Paul, I’m going to start with you. What exactly is Evusheld and why does Lupus UK want Evusheld to become available?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, Evusheld is a preventative prophylaxis treatment, so it’s two types of antibody that can fight COVID-19. And it’s designed for people who can’t get protection from vaccines so that they can have this treatment instead and it will give them protection against COVID-19.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What’s the difference between the OG COVID vaccine and that?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Vaccines what they do is encourage your immune system to create its own antibodies against the virus. Whereas in people who are immune suppressed or immune compromised their immune system doesn’t recognise the vaccine and produce those antibodies. What Evusheld is it’s just giving you those antibodies straightaway so that they are then in your body and your own immune system doesn’t need to create them.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ah, okay, I get it. And Mark, you’re from the Forgotten 500,000, you have a chronic illness yourself and you’ve been shielding. Can you tell us a bit about that?

MARK-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, I’ve got a condition called pulmonary sarcoidosis, it’s an autoimmune disease, it affects my lungs and other parts of my body. I’ve had it for 12 years. When the pandemic hit we were told to go into shielding, and basically for the past, well up until November 1 when I actually got Evusheld, I paid for it privately, it’s been a case of shielding. At times I’ve been separate from my family. I spent about seven months during that living in the summer house at various times away from my family.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That must have been really hard.

MARK-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Unbelievably hard, you know, when you can see your family but you can’t touch them.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And what about work as well, Mark?

MARK-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I had my own business before the pandemic hit, and that basically went on the backburner as soon as I went into shielding, and we had to shut the business down. So, we lost that as well.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What business did you have?

MARK-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I had a landscaping company, three guys working for me, they had to be laid off. So, everything got turned on its head very quickly.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And I guess you had emotional and financial worries?

MARK-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, massive uncertainty. I mean, we were lucky that my wife can work from home. She has her own business. We’ve become reliant on that. The emotional and the mental side of it has probably been the worst thing, because it’s not only affected me but it’s affected the family.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think you said you paid for Evusheld, how did you go about that? How much did it cost?

MARK-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It was basically a case of trying to find somebody that was doing it, because obviously once the drug got released it was all very new. We were lucky, we managed to find someone in Harley Street that got on board with it very, very quickly. And because of the campaign we were able to guide a little bit as well. I got it on November 1st. It cost me £2,300. It is out there cheaper because more and more hospitals and clinics have taken it up, but I couldn’t wait for it basically. And just to see the effects on my wife and my children once I’d had it, you could visibly see the weight come off their shoulders.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And do you feel safer now you’ve had it, Mark? Because what would happen if you got COVID?

MARK-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, I do feel safer. What would happen if I got COVID I still don’t know, but I’ve got faith in the protection it’s given me basically, so life has opened up. I still have to be careful. I still have to consider where I go. I won’t go into a busy shop, a busy restaurant. But I have been into restaurants now. I’ve gone into a shop. I went into my local mini Tesco the other day and it was so weird actually standing there looking at the shelves, seeing all the different chocolate bars and trying to work out what to buy. It was bizarre.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Is this just a one-off dose?

MARK-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, it’s continuing. Basically it’s every six months more or less. And certainly in countries that are using it, like America, their programmes are every six months they’re giving shots of it.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And now that you’ve got this campaign what kind of other stories have you heard from people that are part of it?

MARK-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So many stories, and some of them literally we read them and they move you to tears. We’ve had people who are literally suicidal because of the position they’re in. We’ve had people that are working and their place of work has withdrawn all of the protection measures they’d got, so they’re in a position of do I go into work and risk contracting it, or do I now have to give up my job. People that still haven’t been able to cuddle grandchildren. People that are looking at taking up payday loans or putting money on their credit card to try and pay for this. We’ve had one person who was looking at turning to the sex industry to try and pay for it for a relative.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh wow.

MARK-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And you see these stories coming in from people that you know, because of the group and the campaign, it becomes very personal.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’ve actually got some voice notes here from some of the people you talk about who are part of the Forgotten 500,000 campaign, so let’s have a little listen to that now:

VOICE 1-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m the husband of an immunosuppressed wife. We’re both still shielding. I’ve had to pack up work so that I can protect my wife.

VOICE 2-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’ve been shielding since shielding began, but this is proving more and more difficult as I’ve got two children at two different schools. Imagine if something serious happened to me and that child knew that that they’d brought it back from school and potentially killed or seriously damaged their mother. It must be horrendous for them.

VOICE 3-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý My wife had a kidney transplant. We’ve not been to a son or daughter’s house for three years, and they haven’t been to ours before this Christmas when my daughter took two weeks’ holiday in order to isolate before allowing us to go into their house.

VOICE 4-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I have leukaemia. Just after the first lockdown I moved onto a canal boat where I could enforce distancing rules more effectively while still seeing people outside. When friends want to visit I have to ask them to go into quarantine and take PCRs. Today was my cherished uncle’s funeral, which I watched via YouTube. I rather wish I’d been able to attend.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, I bet he does.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, it’s quite serious listening to the impact on people’s lives still.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s the sort of isolation, isn’t it, and the family and the finance, it’s all of that combined, and the guilt. There’s so much to it, isn’t there?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Paul, do you hear similar stories at Lupus UK?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, absolutely. We know of people who have had to separate from their close family. It’s drastic the measures that have to be taken. But the consequences of not taking those actions don’t bear thinking about.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And Mark, the government’s stance is that they haven’t rolled out Evusheld yet because they don’t know how effective it is against the Omicron variant of COVID and other more recent variants. Why do you and others still want it?

MARK-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Because it’s still offering protection. There are some tests that have been done in the laboratory that are showing some casting some doubt on some of the variants. But what happens in the laboratory and what happens in the human body are two completely different things. Even if it offered people 10% protection that’s 10% more than they’ve got now. The majority of people that we have on our campaign group they are still going out and getting every single vaccine shot they’re offered when it comes around, because even if it only gives them 1% or 2% that can make the difference between a serious illness or ending up on a mortuary slab, to be brutally honest.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Paul, I understand that there was a big meeting this week to decide what’s going to happen next. Can you tell us who was there and what the latest is?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, so NICE, who decide or make recommendations about which treatments the NHS should use, they met to appraise this treatment, look at the evidence that’s available, and hear from expert clinicians and patients to ultimately make a decision about whether Evusheld will be made available on the NHS. So, they met earlier this week, and hopefully will get a draft recommendation within the next couple of weeks, which will give us an indication of whether Evusheld will be made available or not, and to whom it might be available. Because it may not be made available to everyone who’s on immune suppressant medication; it might be just those who are a higher risk. It’s quite a broad category.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, we did offer the Department of Health and Social Care to come on today. They declined but did provide us with this statement, ‘Following a robust review of the available data our clinical experts advised there is currently insufficient data on the duration of protection offered by Evusheld in relation to the Omicron variant. And in line with that advice the government will not be procuring doses at this time. We are keeping the evidence under close review, and NICE have begun their appraisal of Evusheld. If they consider the treatment to be clinically and cost effective it will be made available on the NHS in the usual way’.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And we will of course come back to this when we know the outcome of this decision, won’t we Nikki?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, absolutely. And thank you so much Mark and Paul for joining us today.

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Access All with Nikki Fox.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý He is one of the most recognisable broadcasters on television, with one of the most recognisable voices, Huw Edwards has been at the Â鶹Éç for almost 40 years, covering the biggest stories of our time with professionalism, warmth, and a stamina I can only dream of.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Are you sure about that, Nikki? You didn’t write that, did you? Someone else wrote that.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I actually wrote that, Huw.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Honestly, you're meant to be objective.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I was proud of that.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You’re meant to be impartial. Well, it’s ridiculously generous of you, but thank you.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s true, you do work like a machine. You’re not just turning up and reading other people’s words; you put in a full shift before you go on the Ten. You’re across everything. You have to be across everything; and it’s a sad world at the moment. You’ve spoken quite openly about having depression.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And I just wonder how you manage that.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think there are lots of things we deal with which are very, very disheartening and depressing. There was a piece the other night by Lyse Doucet from a remote area in Afghanistan where families are living in temperatures -31, no help, really struggling.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý One boy with one glove on and one not.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh honestly. That’s just one example. Orphaned kids in Syria another example. There are loads of examples we could give. There are people in Ukraine suffering really badly. Does that have an effect on you? Well, you’d be a pretty odd person, wouldn’t you to be honest, if you weren’t affected by it.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And yet you’re dealing with it in a nice warm building in Central London with a cup of coffee. Yes, you’re not out there in the middle of it, like Lyse was the other day, so you are one step removed. But I think the relentless diet of news which is gloomy or depressing does take its toll. And I’m very aware that for the audience, my mum is in her 80s now, she watches every night, she often says to me, ‘I had to switch off because I couldn’t watch any more’. I’m aware that there are lots of people watching, especially if they’re elderly and living alone, this is their contact with the world, and if my mum’s saying to me, ‘I had to switch off’ I’m thinking well, did we get the balance right in the programme. This is a very tricky area for us to discuss because the first thing you want to be careful about is not giving people the impression that you think you can discard stories because you don’t want to depress people. Because ultimately if a story is important enough it should be on the news, whether it’s depressing or not. But there is a half hour of stories that we put together and, you know as well as I do, that you need to get the mix right. You can’t give people half an hour of unremitting gloom about the world because I think that’s wrong. I think you do need to give people a bit of an insight into somebody who has done well at something: great scientific breakthroughs, medical breakthroughs, we all feel good about those things. So, the answer is I think to take a wider view and to try to have a good mix of things going on and that way you can deal with things, I think, in a better way.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, we know obviously depression isn’t necessarily reactive or connected with something that you’re doing. But this is a pretty big job and you’re exposed to quite a lot. Does it actually have an impact on your mental health?

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think it’s impossible to deny that, because that’s part of who you are. And in my case it’s a matter of managing it. I can’t tell you there’s a trigger for this or a trigger for that. I know after my dad died a couple of years went by and suddenly I seemed to realise that he wasn’t there anymore, and that did trigger something. So, that’s a trigger. But other times I’ve had bouts of depression and I honestly can’t give you a trigger. So, therefore managing that can be a bit of a handful at times. And you’re also aware that you don’t want to offload this onto people because actually people have got their own stuff to think about. I don’t want to give my family cause for concern, so you try to manage it in your own way.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The other thing I’d say about this job and mental health, it’s to do with the pressure that people are under. Now, this is not saying that journalism is a more pressurised job than anything else, of course it’s not. You’re not operating on people and saving people’s lives, so I’m not making silly comparisons. But you are under daily pressure to deliver. And if you don’t deliver, well there are questions to be asked about your job and whether you can do the job and all the rest of it. So, they are quite important questions about you as an individual, and therefore that daily pressure brings its own issues.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s a demanding job when it comes to the length of your day, you don’t get as much sleep.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, you don’t.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý If you’re going through depression and/or anxiety you’re supposed to sleep, aren’t you, you’re supposed to switch everything off.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think the lack of sleep is the great enemy. It’s the one thing I try to say to my kids all the time, because they tend to be up quite late or they’re watching telly or they’re doing whatever. I say, ‘Look, if you’re down to five hours sleep, or sometimes even less, it’s a disaster’. I can’t operate on that. I mean, in my 20s maybe I could. But these days if I have a bad night’s sleep it will affect the next day in a big way. I’m glad to see lots more people…

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You never show it though.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, I mean honestly, it says that in your script, doesn’t it? You wrote that earlier.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Amazing when tired.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, but the point is I do go on there and my mum says, ‘You looked dreadful tonight. You looked so tired’. She’s probably right. But lack of sleep is a big enemy. Going to bed at the same time if you can, getting up at the same time, whether you’re on a day off or a day in work, making it regular, getting the pattern really sorted. And I think that’s very important.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And is that one of your big strategies for managing your mental health? And what are your other strategies or management tools that you use?

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, having time to relax, whether that is enjoying a glass of wine or having a meal or whatever, that’s important. The way that I try to structure my day does involve trying to have a block of sleep which is reliable and consistent. Apart from the sleep thing, to make sure that you’ve got time in your week where you know you can have a little bit of downtime. Now, often that is cancelled or often it’s taken away, as you know.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It goes.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, it goes. Just a phone call from work and it’s gone. But I try to make sure that I can play a bit of piano at home because it’s good decompression. For many years, because of having a family and everything else, I lost contact with lots of friends I had, but some really good friends. I’ve made a big effort in recent years with three or four of them to make contact again and to encourage that relationship. I’ve found that to be very rewarding.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Because sometimes you really don’t feel like doing it.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, you don’t.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Because you feel you’ve run out of energy.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You’re right.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But actually you’re right, I did it last weekend and it was a real tonic.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think it’s a good thing to do.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s nice as well because when you are exhausted and knackered you don’t want to put that on someone else, do you?

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You want to ring someone up and have a nice little chitchat.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Totally.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But if you’re not feeling in the mood you’re like, well what have I got to give to this conversation.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. I think the issue is, if you’re going to talk to, let’s say if I talk to a friend back in South Wales who’s not in my line of work, who does something completely different, lives in a completely different environment, I’m not ringing up to let off steam, I’m ringing up to actually take myself out of where I am.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, yeah, yeah.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s not to do with offloading in that way. It’s to do with putting myself in a different place. And I think that’s very healthy.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý When did you first discover that you had depression? What was that first moment like?

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do you discover it? You slowly realise it I think.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You said something a few minutes ago in the same breath you said anxiety and depression.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. Well, and/or isn’t it?

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I think I’d say gently they’re totally different. You can have an overlap. I mean, I’m generally quite an anxious person, but I’m not depressed. Does that make sense?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I can be anxious without being depressed. I’m anxious about little and big things. But depression is totally different. That’s when you sink into a state where you can’t really help yourself. With anxiety you can do certain things, you can manage anxiety in certain ways; you’ve got little techniques. With depression if it really takes hold I’ve found myself at one point I couldn’t get out bed because you can’t do anything, you can’t speak to people, you don’t want to see anybody, you don’t want to speak to people, you feel that everything’s too much, you can’t deal with anything. That’s a terrible kind of cloud that just comes over you and you can’t shift it. And that is a proper illness. This is something that’s got to be said as well, I’ve got colleagues, they mean very well, but when they talk about depression it’s like they’reÌý talking about a bit of, ‘Oh you’re a bit worried about something?’ Uh, no, it’s not that. It’s when your life comes to a grinding halt. You can’t do anything. And you need much more than a bit of a friendly chat to get out of that.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, for me it’s to do with understanding that depression is an illness, just as measles is an illness, and that these things need to be treated. And the more people talk about it and are not embarrassed – I’m not the least bit embarrassed about it. I have friends who have depression who are very, very ashamed of it. I say to them, stop it, it’s an illness, it needs to be treated. People should be sympathetic and they should understand that you’re going through something. And hopefully that you come out of it. And yes, it helps to talk about these things, but ultimately you will need other help as well. Now, whether that’s a prescribed drug or whether that’s a course of therapy or whatever it is, you need help to get out of that. Because all I know is if you don’t get the help you won’t get out of it.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Did you take medication?

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Did you?

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, up until 2019. I think it’s very important to say these things. I mean, if you’ve got an infection you take antibiotics. What’s the problem? If a doctor says this will help you, what’s the problem?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And were you ever worried about it? Have you always had this attitude?

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I, especially with kids who were younger at the time as well, you have responsibilities in that area. You want to sort yourself out. You want to get yourself better, because actually you don’t want to be some burden to people for whatever reason, even though it’s not your fault. So, my view was let’s sort it out. And if it means having therapy fine. If it means taking some pills fine. And in my case it worked. And I would say to people, don’t be embarrassed by it, don’t be ashamed of it, because actually if you are depressed and you’re diagnosed as having a form of depression you’ll need help to get out of it. Well, go and get the help, and don’t think twice about it. If an employer like the Â鶹Éç is serious about saying we want to support people, talk about your problems, we want you to perform well in your job so anything that takes away from that we want to help with, well then I took them at their word. And in my experience bosses have been very good. I do know of other employers where people will talk a good game but actually they’re a bit freaked out by it, and I think they change their view of how somebody might be able to perform.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý In my experience the Â鶹Éç, I spoke about this two years ago, it didn’t stop them asking me to present some of the biggest shows we’ve done. And that is a very good reflection on the Â鶹Éç, I’ve got to say, really good reflection on the Â鶹Éç. So, I would say to people if you need help and if you think that you’re in a position where you need help, go and get it.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Have you ever regretted talking about your mental health? I kind of liken it to when you’re disabled and you openly talk about something to do with disability and then loads of people want you to talk about it all the time, in that way?

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, to be honest if I was interviewing you that would be one of the prime questions, because I think when I watch the way you operate as a journalist, and you do talk about some of the issues that affect you but you talk about other things which don’t affect you, and I think one of the frustrations for you might be that people actually come back to one thing all the time.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Whereas you might have very good and meaningful things to say about other stuff as well. That issue I recognise. With me – that’s a very blunt question do I regret it – once or twice when people have said very, very stupid things, yes.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Like what?

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý One of my colleagues said to me, just after I’d kind of spoken about it first of all, ‘Oh you’re very brave doing that, you’ve got to be a bit careful about these things because the Â鶹Éç doesn’t want people thinking there’s some kind of nutter reading the Ten’.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No!

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, honestly. I said this in an interview and people said, ‘Oh I don’t believe anybody said that’. Well, they actually did say it. But the only thing I’d say is they were a one-off. You’re always going to get some idiot somewhere to say something like that.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Obviously it wasn’t a great thing to say, but me being me I just thought, you’re an idiot, that’s the only way to think about it. Because most people don’t think like that.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, the answer to the question is, I’ve had a few seconds of regret now and again, but the big judgement on it, it’s been a great thing to do.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Good.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Because one of the best things has been colleagues in the newsroom, especially younger colleagues, come through the pandemic, lots of them living alone in London, and they’ve actually gone through a very tough time, and quite a lot of colleagues have come up to me and said, ‘Thank you for raising it, because actually I’d never have raised it, but it’s encouraged me to raise it’. And I thought well, if I’ve done that to two or three people that’s enough. And the truth is that you’ve got to hold these employers to what they promise. If they say that they’ve got a good code in terms of mental health well then you hold them to that.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, prove it.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Because it shouldn’t be affecting your career in any way. Unless of course you’re so ill you can’t do the job, and then we go back to all kinds of illness.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We have to wrap it up, but you’re not going to retire soon, are you? There have been reports about you retiring for a couple of years now.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I know, but I am 61 now.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You look fabulous.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I was 60 when I came into this studio; I’m now 61.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s been a long one, people.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Honestly, I just feel that, I don’t know, I feel a bit old these days. I still love the job. And there’s a Coronation coming up; I’m not going to go before then.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh no.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s if I’m allowed to do it. But I would love to do that because I think that’s going to be quite spectacular. All this stuff about cut-price Coronation, forget that. I think they’ll do a good show. I don’t know, I’d say to both of you and to everyone listening really taking stuff for granted in life is one of the worse things you can do. I kind of come into work – sorry, I know you need to finish – if I make a mistake when I’m doing my job that will give me days of worry.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Same here.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I will worry about it. And I will worry about it because, I’ve been doing the job for years and years and years, I’ll worry about it because I’ll think I don’t want people to think that I’m losing my touch or that I’m losing my ability to do the job or that I’m losing my mental sharpness or whatever else. I do worry about it. I think that’s all a good sign. It’s a good sign that you still have the appetite to do the job well. But I’m also aware that as the years go by it is right to make room for younger people and it is right to give encouragement to younger people. And also, this is something that doesn’t happen very often at the Â鶹Éç by the way, to transfer some skills. They dropped me in to present the Six all those years ago without a day of guidance, without a day of chat with any other presenter. You’re on a voyage of discovery by yourself, and you’re going to make mistakes.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, I would like to think that the Â鶹Éç would say to me, well look, you’ve got a lot of experience and you’ve got a skillset as a presenter that you could share with others, and I’d like to do that. I think that is important honestly, I do.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you so much.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s been a pleasure.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thanks for coming on.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s been nice talking to you.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I know pods aren’t your favourite thing.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý They’re not actually.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I know, so thanks for coming on.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Honestly, but this has been a nice chat. And also, can I just say, I don’t often talk about some of that stuff, so I was pleased that you asked about some of it. And I hope that the answers made sense.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý They certainly did. Thank you.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh.

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Good. Nice to talk to you both. I’m not coming back for ten years.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Really?

HUW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, I’m not. That’s it.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh it was so nice to speak to Huw. He’s my idol, Emma.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Is he? I’m not surprised. He’s a really funny guy as well.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So funny. Do you think people realise how funny he is?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well they will now, which is great.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý He’s very dry as well. I was quite nervous interviewing him actually.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But he was an absolute pro and a gentleman.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý He was a dream. And he’s very tall.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Is he?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Just so you know, yeah. Very tall. My head comes to his waist. No, in a mobility scooter. But sometimes when I go to hug him I land on his waist. It’s hugely embarrassing, anyway.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You just gave him a little hip hug, no problem with that, it’s grand.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý This has been Access All for another week. As always you can subscribe to us on Â鶹Éç Sounds so that we are there on your device whenever a new episode drops. Drop it like it’s hot. I feel so young when I say that, Emma. And also if you have an Amazon Echo just say, ask the Â鶹Éç for Access All, to hear the latest edition. Just like that, ask the Â鶹Éç for Access All.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, but you’d have to download the skill first.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, well done, install the Â鶹Éç skill first.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And it’s a nice accessible hands-free way for many of us to listen. And we’re also on 5 Live on the 4 o’clock hour of the morning on a Monday. Take away those Monday blues.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Late nights with Tracey and Fox. Well, until next week everyone, we’ll see you later alligator.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Bye.

[Trailer]

PRESENTER- You know when you’re worried about something, but then you talk to your friend who knows more about the subject than you do, and straightaway you start to feel better? That’s what we try and do every day on Newscast.

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, they’re saying that that would be simple to do, it would give everyone certainty.

PRESENTER- We talk to people who are in the news:

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You were chasing me round with a plate of cheese.

PRESENTER- We talk to people who know what’s going on in the news:

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý At least I didn’t get up and slap anybody.

PRESENTER- We talk to people who understand what the news means:

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think that he’s decided he’s going to listen, and then he might just intervene.

PRESENTER- And we talk to the best Â鶹Éç journalists, asking the most important questions:

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What’s wrong with chinos? You don’t want them, people to start wearing chinos?

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Don’t start me, Chris.

PRESENTER- That’s Newscast from Â鶹Éç News, the podcast that knows a lot of people who know a lot about the news.

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And I was like, go on Kate, put some more welly into it!

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Listen to Newscast every day on Â鶹Éç Sounds.

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m glad I asked that.

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m very glad that you asked that!

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