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30th August 2023

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – episode 68

Presented by Emma Tracey

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EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Are you excited about the supermoon? I keep hearing people talking about supermoons. What’s a supermoon? A moon’s a moon: it’s half, it’s crescent, it’s full, but it’s a moon. It comes out at night, I believe it’s a circle, it’s in the sky. What’s so super about this moon bit of the year, month, century, whatever? Anyway, I mean it’s all gone a bit ridiculous. There’s all these different words for different kinds of moon which I just don’t understand. Blood moon, strawberry moon, harvest moon, button moon, I just…it makes no sense to me at all. I don’t think button moon is actually one of the types of moon. But anyway if you're going out to watch the supermoon tonight enjoy. I’ll be asleep.

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Theme music.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s Access All, the weekly podcast from the Â鶹Éç about disability and mental health. This is the last in our series of summer shows where we bring you lots of interviews with awesome disabled people. We’re going back to normal – whatever that is – next week, and Nikki will be back as well then too.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Subscribe to us now. Follow us on Twitter or X @Â鶹ÉçAccessAll, and get in touch, we love to hear from you.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Later in the podcast we’ll be hearing from two influencers, Hermon and Heroda Berhane. But first in Edinburgh recently I caught up with someone that I’ve been chasing for quite a while. She had a show at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival this year, she was absolutely fantastic, it was the incomparable Gail Porter:

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý This is very exciting, I’ve been let out of the little booth in Â鶹Éç in Edinburgh where I usually do Access All, and I’m in the biggest, fanciest studio in the building. And this is all for Bafta winning, wonderful Gail Porter, who joins me. Hi, Gail, how are you?

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hi, this is very nice, isn’t it?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, it’s very, very plush and fancy, I have to say. Now, by the time this goes out Gail will have just wrapped up her one-woman show, Hung, Drawn and Portered. Gail, how did it go? How was it?

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, yeah, it’s all been very bizarre to be honest, because day one I thought what on earth am I doing, why did I decide to do this, this is a crazy idea. And I was very nervous. And then towards the middle I was getting a bit more gung-ho going, yeah, whatever, this is great fun. And now well, I wanted it to kind of finish because I was getting very tired and I was actually boring myself thinking, are people actually enjoying…because you forget that people are different every single day. Whereas me, I just feel like I’m doing the same, not the same thing because I change it a lot, but I was boring myself. But now I just think oh gosh, that ended quickly; even though it felt like the longest run in the world.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I have to say I did see the show, and it was early in the run, it was a work in progress, but I absolutely loved all of your audience interaction. It was like you’d been doing standup comedy for a very long time. I mean, we all know you from your presenting. I particularly remember you from Fully Booked on a Saturday morning.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That was great fun.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It seemed like really good fun.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It was so much fun. We were just like naughty children and we could get away with lots of things because nobody really…I mean, obviously everything within limits. But we were allowed to…mums and dads would watch it and get the wee jokes that we’d do, and kids would watch it and not really understand that we were doing wee jokes for the mums and dads as well.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, actually some kids’ TV is still like that but not as much as it used to be, something for the adults, something for the kids.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, exactly.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And then you were on Top of the Pops, Wish You Were Here. You talk a lot in your show about Dead Famous where you went looking for the ghosts of famous people in the US. And then there’s comedy. How did that start? Why did you decide to do that?

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I came to the Edinburgh Festival – I mean, I’ve come to the Edinburgh Festival every single year, I’m Portobello, well Joppa – and yeah, mum used to bring me all the time. And it was amazing. I was asked to be a guest on John Bishop’s show last year, Three Little Words, it was him and Tony Pitts, and we just did not stop laughing on stage at any point. And they just did a throwaway comment saying, you should think about this. And I thought yeah, that would be a great idea. And then it wasn’t till it all got organised that I realised how much work goes into these things and how much money it costs, and how much money you don’t make. But I’ve really enjoyed it and it’s been an absolutely amazing learning curve. And my friends have supported me, and you guys have supported me, everyone’s been so lovely. It’s just great doing something different because, as I say, I bore myself very quickly.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s a very, very personal show, isn’t it?

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. Well, a lot of things I’ve been doing recently are personal because it resonates with so many people. If you’ve got a problem I like to share it because I think somebody’s going to say, ah I’ve been through that, whether it’s homelessness or losing my hair or I’ve been in a psychiatric unit [laughs]. And I just think do you know what, I’ll just tell you all, what’s the worst that could happen. I think of sitting on a bench in the pouring rain with no roof over my head with nowhere to go, and I thought yeah, I managed to get through that and I’m still standing so we’re all right.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s incredible. You mentioned the psychiatric hospital stay, and one of the first questions you ask the audience in your show is, ‘Has anyone here been sectioned?’

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And it’s really important for you to talk about mental health, isn’t it? You’ve always been really, really open. But why particularly about the process of being sectioned and that area of things?

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I’ve been working a lot with mental health for a long time. And one of the problems, well a major problem, is the whole sectioning. Basically if somebody’s got mental health issues and a doctor doesn’t know what to do with them or the hospital doesn’t know what to do with them they were just putting them in a unit, so just shoving everyone together. So, I was in there because I was depressed. There was a guy who was in there with me who they couldn’t get him into prison because the prison was full and he’d just assaulted someone, so they shoved him in the same unit as me. It was just a whole bunch of people that they didn’t know what to do with. So, I’m just trying to change that and say you can’t just shove people into one room and say we don’t know what to do with them. So, I think it’s really important to talk about it because they don’t do anything for you. When I was there all they do is give you drugs: drugs in the morning, drugs at lunchtime, drugs in the evening to make sure that you’re sedated and you don’t cause any problems. And there’s no doctors there; it was just security and that was it. We were in pyjamas, and it was literally like One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest. I mean, it’s 2023, that’s just not right.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And are you told by people that they have similar experiences?

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Every single person that I’ve spoken to that’s ever been put into any sort of psychiatric unit or just locked away because they don’t know what to do with them, they’ve all come back with the same stories going, we were just left to our own devices, we were given medication, we were told if we stay there for 28 days we’ll be fine after that. I mean, who decides 28 days? That just doesn’t make any sense.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. And how do you make that funny then? Because your show’s a comedy show.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] well, you know, for anyone that’s been sectioned, well just funny things that happen. There were two guys that thought they were Jesus, so it’s like are we calling you Jesi, we’re not sure, do you use plurals. I mean, I can laugh about it now but I didn’t laugh about it at the time. But I tried to make it funny but I do bring in the serious aspect of it towards the end of the show…

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, of course.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý …to say, do you know what, this should not be happening. But when it was there it was blinking crazy. I watched One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest and I do laugh at lots of it, but then it’s very serious – I’m not going to spoil it for people that haven’t read it or haven’t seen the film – but it is very serious. So,Ìý they can have fun, they can be a bit, you know.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. So, what goes on inside the psychiatric unit between patients and between staff and patients is sometimes humorous.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But the general situation you have your own opinions on.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, well we didn’t have staff, we had security. So, they just made sure we didn’t get out. But between the people that were inside everybody had very, very different symptoms and different diagnoses or whatever, and we were all just given loads and loads of drugs. So, it was quite funny sometimes because we didn’t really know what was going on. And we were all laughing at each other’s problems, which actually kept us above board.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Kept you above water so you could keep going.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes. I was going to say kept us sane, but that’s the wrong phrase [laughter].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And the show, really interestingly the official listing says, neurodiversity led.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Why is that?

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’ve got absolutely no idea. I didn’t write that. I just wanted it to be a show about my life. Because it’s basically life story, a bit of fun, a little bit of sadness, tinged with homelessness, tinged with hair loss, tinged with the death of my parents and the death…yeah, all sorts.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, the death of your dad you talk about, and the pandemic as well, because that happened right at the beginning of the pandemic, didn’t it?

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, my dad passed away in Spain the week before lockdown. So, I actually was working in Edinburgh and got a phone call from my dad in the morning, he was totally fine, and then I got a phone call in the afternoon saying your dad’s dead. So, he’d had a massive brain haemorrhage. They said, you’ve got one week to get from Edinburgh back to London, London to Spain, Spain go and identify your father, get him cremated, get the last flight out of Spain and then get back home. I went, of course I have to do that.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m Gail Porter!

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s Gail Porter, why would it possibly be simple. I did manage it eventually, and I got the last flight out of Spain and then I had my dad at my house for the whole of lockdown. Not the massive big dad but [laughs] the ashes of my dad.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And you had him going home on the plane with you and everything.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I did.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý A strange experience.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, I had him at my feet, because I put him in a bag that said Happy on it, because I didn’t want people to ask me any questions, ‘What’s in the bag?’ ‘Oh, my dead dad.’ But this lovely air hostess came up to me and said, ‘Would you like a seat in First Class? Are you Gail?’ This doesn’t usually happen to me so it was very nice of her. And I said, ‘I don’t know if I am to be honest, I don’t know what’s happening’. And she said, ‘Oh, there’s two seats’ and I said, ‘That’s great’. And the guy next to me said, ‘I’m not with her’ and I said, ‘No’ and I pointed at the box at my feet and I went, ‘That’s my dad’. And the guy next to me was like, ‘Oh my gosh, make her go away, make her go away!’ And so I went and sat on my seat and I put my dad on the seat next to me, and I put a seatbelt on him – you know, safety and all that. And then the poor air hostess was like, ‘Would you like a glass of wine?’ and I went, ‘Yeah, hang on, dad, do you want a glass of wine? Yeah, we’ll take two please, two yeah, that’ll be great’.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh my goodness.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You know.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Did that actually happen?

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It did, yeah. And I think my dad would’ve probably thought that was quite funny [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s good.Ìý And having your dad with you in the pandemic and being, like many of us, by yourself, did that have an impact on your mental health do you think?

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, when I was going through the mess he made, his financial mess, I put him in the spare room because I was like, I can’t deal with you [laughter], I can’t deal with you today, this is too much. It was very bizarre because my dad has one brother that survived, well he’s survived my father, so I was just thinking oh gosh, what do I do with my dad. And my dad’s brother was like, I want you to bring him to Edinburgh. And of course I couldn’t because we weren’t allowed to travel. It was very odd having my dad in the spare room. And occasionally my friends would say we could pop over, when we had a break from lockdown, and they said, ‘But is your dead dad in the house?’ and I was like, ‘Yeah, I’m so sorry, but I don’t know what else to do with him. I don’t have a garden; I can’t put him outside’. So, yeah, it was a bit weird.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But for my mental health it was fine. It was tricky at the beginning, but then I just thought well, you know, at least he’s here, he’s with his daughter I guess.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And you’re great on Twitter and Instagram, you’ve really got a community there I think from following you on those platforms. Did you use those quite a lot in the pandemic to chat and stuff like that?

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I used them all the time. Apart from now it’s changed to X or whatever it is. Argh.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I keep forgetting that. I said Twitter, it’s not Twitter; it’s X formerly known as Twitter.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I know. The thing is I was always on Twitter. Every day I’d go, good morning, have a great day or have a good night. I just want to be positive, because sometimes people use it in a very negative way and I don’t agree with that. And now it’s X I keep forgetting. I’m like I don’t like it, stop changing things.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Don’t like change.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And on Instagram I go, oh look, there’s my new socks. And my daughter says, ‘Mum, stop posting pictures of your socks. No one cares’. I’m like, ‘You’d be surprised, honey. You’d be really surprised the amount of people who like my socks’. She’s like, oh mum.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I bet you get more comments on your socks than on something about sectioning or whatever?

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, exactly [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Absolutely. Now, you talked about going on the plane, and you said that you don’t get upgrades. But I’ve heard that you do sometimes get upgrades because you’ve got no hair.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh yes, that was one time. I got on the plane and I was coming back from America, we were doing the Dead Famous programme, and this American lady upgraded me. And I thought maybe she’d watched the programme and I thought, oh that’s nice. But apparently no one watches it. So, she upgraded me and she was giving me free champagne and free food and da, da, da, and it was all very posh. And then when I got off the plane she’d thought I had cancer because I had no hair, and it was all very embarrassing. So, I’ve got loads of free booze in the bags and everything. And she was like, ‘What kind of chemotherapy are you going through?’ and it was just awful, she just assumed; she didn’t even bother to ask me. And I just went, ‘Oh, just the usual’ and I felt so bad. But I had all these bags of free booze, I was like oh my gosh, this is so embarrassing.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You just sort of went down a road that you couldn’t come back from.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, and there was a huge queue of people behind me and I was thinking, oh my gosh. And I didn’t want to explain it to her. And then I got off the plane and I burst into tears and I thought, you just assumed because I’ve got no hair. And I don’t think like that; I just think people know that I’ve got alopecia. But yeah, it was really, really embarrassing.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s a bit of a difficult thing for your head, I’d imagine, to be assumed to have something other than what you’ve got. But for a lot of people who’ve lost their hair I know lots of women particularly you’re a bit of a role model and a source of inspiration. And I think part of that maybe is because you’ve chosen to not wear a wig, haven’t you? And why have you chosen not to?

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý To be honest, when my hair fell out it was so quick, it was four weeks, so I had long blond hair and then four weeks later I was completely bald, and I just couldn’t be bothered. My mum had lost her hair through chemotherapy, and I thought, do you know what, me losing my hair from alopecia is nothing to be honest, and I’m not that bothered, and my head’s quite a good shape, and I’m quite clumsy and I thought I’m the sort of person that would probably take my wig off in a bar, scratch my head, put it back on and then everyone in the bar be traumatised. And I thought, do you know, just forget it. And once people got used to me not wearing a wig no one cares anymore. It was just a personal choice. If you want to wear a wig no problem, you want to wear a hat, just do what makes you comfortable. I’m comfortable without it. It takes me two minutes to get ready.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Two minutes.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý There is no hair to wash or dry or…

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No hair anywhere. I’m like a massive baby with boobs. There is no hair anywhere, so it’s like in the shower, out the shower, and I’m gone. I’ve got no eyelashes, stick them on, yeah, out we go. Totally easy.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And was it difficult to deal with when it happened in terms of you had a certain image in the public and then when you lost your hair maybe it was slightly a different image?

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, people didn’t want to go near me for television or anything because I looked different, and they wanted me to wear wigs, which I refused to do. And then all anybody wanted to talk to me about was being bald. They were like, ‘Come on and be bald, but we can’t pay you because you’re providing sort of a public service’. So, then I went from doing paid jobs to not getting paid for anything, because all I was good for was talking about being bald. But, you know.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Every disabled person in the world knows that feeling.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I bet.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Anyone who’s in the media or tries to get into the media, you just are never paid at the start, and they think they don’t have to pay you because there’s something about you that they feel like the public should know.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Exactly, 100%, and I’m totally with you on that one. And it’s just really awful. I’ve been bald now for 18 years and I’m still getting invited onto panel shows and da, da, da, and they go, ‘No, well we can’t pay you’. And you’re just like, oh my gosh, I’ve been doing this since I’m 25. I’m 52.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But it must be hard though because one needs the money.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes!

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And what do you do? Have you learned strategies to get them to pay you?

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, to be honest, if I didn’t have certain things to keep me going, my phone was hacked so I got paid – I didn’t realise – the News of the World, or the Mirror or whatever, they hacked my phone, so they paid me off. And so I put that in a savings account so that helped me. And then when my dad passed away my dad has a couple of properties so that keeps me ticking over. But if I was relying on TV or radio or anything like that I would be bankrupt [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. And another one of those things that kept you going was Celebrity Big Brother.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh yeah, I did that because I was skint.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And were you homeless when you went in?

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, I was, yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I heard that on your amazing Bafta winning documentary that you did in 2020.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Was it hard? Did you want to do that?

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Did you enjoy it?

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No. I was staying at a friend’s, I was kind of sofa surfing, and my friend she was trying to get some jobs for me and she said, ‘Oh, Big Brother are interested’. And I was like of course they are, because they like people that are vulnerable or going through a difficult position or, you know.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Who might meltdown or fall apart during the…

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Exactly, they love all that. So, I thought, do you know what, I’m going to say yes. I think I was one of the lowest paid people ever to go on Big Brother because they knew I had nothing. Anyway, I went on, and I thought I’ll be out within the first week because I’ll bore people. And I was there till the last week. I kept going into the Diary Room going, ‘Please vote me off’ because if you walk they don’t pay you.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh. That’s because everybody loves you. That’s why you were kept in so long.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, it’s probably because I was cleaning the house so much. They needed someone to keep cleaning and cleaning. But when I came out I was just running for the exit. And everyone was going, ‘We’ll keep in touch’ and I was like, yeah whatever. No!

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Who were you in with?

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I don’t even remember.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You can’t remember?

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, no it was Americans versus the UK, so there was Janice Dickinson. Oh gosh.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I don’t know who that is, so.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, she’s this…

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m sorry I asked that question!

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý …self-proclaimed first ever supermodel apparently.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Right, okay.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And then there was Fatman Scoop who sings.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh yeah.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And then there was somebody from The Bill, I can’t remember what his name was. And then there was someone from Atomic Kitten. And then there was a porn star. You know, the usual mix [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But do you know what, it was probably a blur as well, because you were having such a hard time before you went in, it’s probably a bit of a blur.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It was all a blur. And it was all just kind of get in there, get out and then just… And I remember putting the deposit on the first, I couldn’t afford to buy a flat but I could rent one, and I remember just getting in, I had no furniture, I had the keys, and I got in and I just locked the door and I lay on the floor and I was like oh thank goodness. And I didn’t leave the flat for about two months. Well, obviously I went to get food, but that was it, I just didn’t want to see anybody, I didn’t want anything. I was like, this is the best feeling ever: I’ve got a roof.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And is that your flat that you’re in now?

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It is indeed, and I love it so much and I’m so happy.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, actually Celebrity Big Brother was a bit of a turning point.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It was. And when I came out the lovely Emma Willis was interviewing everybody when they came out, and she was like, ‘Oh Gail, you’re out, how did it go?’ and I said, ‘Do you know what, Emma, I was sectioned and that was more fun. Being sectioned was more fun than being in Big Brother to be honest with you. I’d rather be sectioned again’. [laughs]

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Would you go back? Would you ever do anything reality again?

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What, do be sectioned?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m joking [laughs]!

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, sectioned and a reality show may be very similar, as you say. Would you ever go back to anything reality show like again?

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I don’t really watch TV. I watch my Netflix and stuff like that. I don’t even know what’s on reality wise.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay, that’s fine.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’ve got no idea.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I don’t either, so I can’t even say which one.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’ve got no idea. I’m sure they still do the dancing. I’m sure, I don’t know.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Would you do Strictly?

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’ve got two left feet so I’d be terrible, absolutely awful. I can’t dance at all.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But you never know. I never say never, but ideally I’d rather be doing standup or writing books or working backstage, working with a team. I like teamwork.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, you like the production aspect?

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I love production. That’s where I started, and I enjoy it. And I like writing. So, who knows?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Can you give us any ideas on what’s coming up for you then? Because this has been really successful and you’re in the papers and your profile is really high right now. What’s next?

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’ve got no idea. I’ve got a couple of meetings this afternoon about possibly writing some stuff, so I’m just going to keep my options open and see what happens. Because I know what it’s like, you can be riding the top of the wave and then suddenly you’re dumped again, so I’m not going to take anything for granted. I’m just going to go with it and see what happens, and just enjoy my life before I have a stomach ulcer [laughter].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That must be so hard for your mental health, the up and down of it all, my goodness.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It does get a bit tricky sometimes. You just think oh, is this going to last, is it not going to last. But it’s my choice, I choose to work in this industry. I think no matter what I would do I’m going to get stressed anyway. I’m just that sort of person.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, Gail, will you come back and talk to me when you have a new thing, the next big thing?

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, of course.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Because I would love to chat again.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I would love to.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We could get deeper and more into some of the stuff we spoke about, because we’ve raced through all the different bits.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But that gives us an excuse to do it again.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, exactly.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yay!

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Gail Porter, thank you so much for joining me. I’ve had an absolute blast.

GAIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you so much for having me.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you.

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Access All.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý A few weeks ago I actually got to speak to a couple of pretty fascinating women. Their names are Hermon and Heroda. They’re originally from Eritrea. They are twins, identical, both deaf, and they work together as influencers. Always together, that sounds tricky to me, but they seem to enjoy themselves and they’re very, very good at it as well. Now, I sat down for a chat with them on Zoom with an interpreter, and they started off by describing themselves.

HERODA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Right now I am wearing a flowery dress – just for audio description purposes – so there are white flowers, and also I’ve got some blue and pink. And I am a black woman, I think I should say that as well. How about you Hermon?

HERMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, hello. My name is Hermon. I’m a black woman as well. And I’m currently wearing a green t-shirt, with glasses, see-through frame sort of thing.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ooh, I do love when a guest describes themselves. You know how much I love audio description. Now, I haven’t come across that many deaf influencers, so Hermon and Heroda do seem to me to be great advocates for inclusivity. Via British Sign Language interpreter, Vivi, Heroda told me how the sisters hadn’t always lived in the UK. Now, there is just one BSL interpreter and two twins, funnily enough, so you’ll hear the interpreter explain which one is speaking each time.

HERMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We were born in Eritrea in East Africa, it’s East North Africa, and that’s where we grew up, until the age of seven we both randomly became deaf. It happened at the same time. And it was a real shock for both of us because we remember what it was like to be hearing, and then afterwards being deaf we really struggled with that. What is going on?

HERODA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Heroda says: we tried to find out what was wrong with us and how come we became deaf. And we went first to America. The doctors told us, confirmed that yes, your children are deaf. And we moved to the UK and that’s where we grew up. But luckily we had each other to sort of like motivate each other, be assertive and just be a bit more resilient later on in life.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý After coming to the UK Hermon and Heroda discovered the deaf community.

HERODA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We thought we were the only deaf people in the world. We just had no idea, because we had never met deaf people in the past, and we did not know there was a sign language. Sign language, what was that? We had no idea. So, we were taught – when I say taught, we were forced to learn how to speak properly per se, you know, learning how to speak. So, oralism, that’s what it was called. And when we arrived in the UK and we found out that there is a school for deaf people and children were signing we thought what is that, they can actually communicate. But it was very crazy because before we really struggled. We actually created our own sign language. And we had no identity, but once we met the deaf community that changed completely. And that’s why it is important to be connected. Sign language enabled us to connect and to have freedom of speech as well.

HERMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Says Hermon: yes, it literally freed us up.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I just absolutely love that they had created their own language between themselves to speak to their parents and their brother. So innovative. Don’t we love to find solutions in the disability community. Next Heroda revealed how she and her sister realised their ambitions in fashion by using social media.

HERODA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Fashion is visual, so it’s totally suitable for us. So, when we started looking at fashion we thought my goodness. My mother loves, is very fashionable, she loves different dresses. Especially when we go to Eritrea in Africa we were always looking at the different women, what they were wearing, and it was just always so appealing for us. So, growing up I wanted to be a fashion designer, but unfortunately because of the barriers facing them, because I am deaf, once again that wasn’t possible. So, I sort of chose to work in social media. And I thought oh, that’s a good alternative because it’s free, I am free, I can do whatever I want, and it doesn’t matter. Deaf people are very passionate about art, acting, fashion, paintings, photograph and things like that. They’re very passionate and they have very strong skills as well in art and design. The problem is that on TV people are looking at specific skills and more specific things; they don’t even want to offer us opportunities or work. We might have the same level of qualification or experience as other people but they don’t want you. You can be an experienced photographer, videographer or whatever, but they don’t want you. And they can be content creators, they can be writers, they can do all those things; and when you look at what they write you think wow, that’s amazing. Unilever has done some research and found that 62% of content creators want to work in film industries, advertising, radio and things like that. And with that research we realised that times have to change, actions have to be taken.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You can read the twins’ blog on beinghermonheroda.com. And don’t worry we will put the address into the podcast notes so that you can check the spelling. And you can follow them on social media.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý This has been Access All for another week. Thank you so much for listening. Myself and Nikki are back together next week. In the meantime you can get in touch with us. You can tweet us @Â鶹ÉçAccessAll. You can email us accessall@bbc.co.uk. Or you can send us a WhatsApp 0330 123 9480. And subscribe to the podcast on Â鶹Éç Sounds. Hit that subscribe button. See you next week. Bye.