麻豆社

听

11th March 2025

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All 鈥� episode 150

Presented by Emma Tracey

听

听

HOLLY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Do you want some toast?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Who are you talking to?

HOLLY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Fletch, my disability epilepsy awareness dog.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And did you get Fletch as a pup and get him trained yourself?

HOLLY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, we got Fletch as a puppy. He trained himself originally, and then we spoke to quite a few people, they came and had a little see of him. He鈥檚 quite switched on as a spaniel, and he鈥檚 now registered properly, which is really cool.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh. Has he a little jacket?

HOLLY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 He does, yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh nice.

HOLLY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 He鈥檚 got the little blue one that says Epilepsy Seizure Alert Dog.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 How does Fletch notify other people, he goes and annoys them doesn鈥檛 he, Holly?

HOLLY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 He goes and barks in their faces, he鈥檒l fuss around their legs. He鈥檚 a very licky dog when he鈥檚 agitated and when something鈥檚 wrong, and then he鈥檒l get more and more intense and start barking in people鈥檚 faces to get them to realise something is actually wrong.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And what鈥檚 his success rate?

HOLLY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 He鈥檚 only ever missed one seizure that I had, and it鈥檚 just because I was too far away we believe; I was upstairs and he was in the sitting room. He used to come to college with me and it was quite impressive, the teachers always knew when I was going to have one because he鈥檇 just start rampaging around the room, jumping up at them, barking consistently. But he also, whilst I鈥檓 having a seizure, he鈥檒l lay on me, a bit like a weighted blanket, legs fully stretched. It makes you feel more comfortable when you come round, you鈥檙e more cooperative, because post-seizure you can be not cooperative at all because you鈥檙e postictal. It鈥檚 where your electrodes are then rebalancing in your brain so you don鈥檛 actually know what鈥檚 going on. And having that comfort there is quite nice. When you breathe next to someone your breathing goes in synch, and it鈥檚 the same with animals so he鈥檒l breathe in synch.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Ah, like spooning someone or whatever. Ah cute.

HOLLY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 What signs is Fletch picking up on that you鈥檙e going to have a seizure?

HOLLY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 What they actually pick up on is a significant increase of heart rate and your blood pressure, and then apparently very close to the time of when you鈥檙e going to drop you release a pheromone that apparently they can sense, which is incredible to me.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Amazing. And when he tells your teachers or your parents what can they do to support you?

HOLLY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 all about making you safe. You can never stop a seizure from happening but you can put in precautions. So, clearing a safe space; if they can get me down on the floor before I just collapse that鈥檚 always a pro; making sure they have my rescue medications; making sure my parents are informed; and monitoring how long it is so we know when to call 999.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh wow. It鈥檚 a pity he can鈥檛 use the phone himself, isn鈥檛 it, so if your parents were out for dinner or something he could, like, let them know?

HOLLY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs] he鈥檚 not got them on speed dial.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Get on the dog and bone, Fletch.

HOLLY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs] yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 We鈥檙e going to be talking to you a little bit later, Holly, about disability benefits, so something completely different.

HOLLY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 On with the show.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Theme music.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hello, I鈥檓 Emma Tracey and this is Access All, the podcast that prides itself on sniffing out the best there is in guests and news from the world of disability and mental health. I think you lot have really good noses as well, so if you think there鈥檚 something that you鈥檝e sniffed out that you think we should be getting on top of then please get in touch. You can email accessall@bbc.co.uk. You can find us on social media @麻豆社AccessAll on Instagram and X. And you can get on the WhatsApp, send us a voice message or a text message to 0330 123 9480. Listen, in a little while I will be talking to Jonny Heaver who was fired recently from Lord Sugar鈥檚 boardroom on the 麻豆社 reality TV show The Apprentice. He has a tutoring company, he has a facial difference, and we鈥檒l be talking about all of that in a little while.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 We know that the government is preparing to set out cuts to the benefits bill in the coming weeks, including payments made to disabled people. And we understand how much that will be worrying a lot of you, so as soon as there is an official announcement we鈥檒l be here to tell you what the impact will be on you. But first, 麻豆社 research has revealed that nearly a third of under-16s who receive Disability Living Allowance have had their applications rejected when they鈥檝e reached 16 and need to move on to adult benefits, so Personal Independence Payments. Child Disability Living Allowance is paid to help with the extra cost of being disabled, of which we know there are many and varied. Our reporter, Joanna Morris, works in the 麻豆社鈥檚 data unit, and she is in charge of the research in question and she鈥檚 with me now. Hi Joanna.

JOANNA-听听听听听听听听听听 Hi, nice to meet you.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Nice to meet you too. As is Holly Crouch. Now, Holly was one of the people that Joanna spoke to and interviewed for her research. Hi, Holly.

HOLLY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hello.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Stick with me, Holly. I鈥檓 going to start with Joanna here. Joanna, what is Disability Living Allowance?

JOANNA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, when it comes to children DLA is designed to help with the extra cost of bringing up a disabled child. It can be claimed for children who have got mobility difficulties, those that might need a bit more care than non-disabled children do. Last year nearly 800,000 under-17s were receiving it, and it鈥檚 based on the support the child needs rather than their condition or their disability.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Okay. And then what happens to these teenagers when they hit 16?

JOANNA-听听听听听听听听听听 Under the current rules when a child gets to 16 they have to apply for adult disability benefit. They鈥檙e invited to apply for this ahead of their entitlement to DLA ending, and they do continue to get the DLA until a decision is made, but there鈥檚 no guarantee that they鈥檙e going to receive PIP. This is not an automatic transition to adult benefits; they have to go through the same application process as anyone else would. And if they don鈥檛 receive it and their carers will lose eligibility for other forms of support that PIP can open the doors to, such as Carer鈥檚 Allowance or even Motability cars, transport to school or college potentially. And disabled young people and their families that we鈥檝e spoken to tell us that that support can disappear really quickly and the impact of losing it can be enormous.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Joanna, you鈥檝e been crunching the numbers around this, what have you discovered?

JOANNA-听听听听听听听听听听 Through looking at DWP data that 29% of initial child DLA to PIP claims have been rejected since PIP was introduced in 2013. Now, in real people terms that鈥檚 more than 124,000 young people that have had claims rejected since then.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Why do you reckon that 29% of children who were getting Disability Living Allowance and are told they need to move on to Personal Independence Payments, why are they being rejected in the first instance?

JOANNA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, the data we鈥檝e got from the DWP breaks down some of the reasons in a very general way. So, it shows us that some claimants didn鈥檛 send the forms back on time; others didn鈥檛 show up for their assessments when invited. But the vast majority of the rejected claims failed the points-based PIP assessment. The assessments are based around a series of questions around a claimant鈥檚 mobility and their ability to carry out day-to-day tasks. But three quarters of those who were assessed and had their claims ultimately rejected didn鈥檛 score enough points to qualify for the benefit.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And you found that quite a few of these 16 year-old teenagers with all sorts of different disabilities, including learning disabilities, autistic kids, lots of different impairments, were actually filling out the form themselves. What has that meant? What鈥檚 the implication of that?

JOANNA-听听听听听听听听听听 There are a lot of people out there who are filling the forms in themselves. Parents can apply to be their appointees and to act for them during the process, but those who feel able to can and do represent themselves. But that can bring issues with it I suppose. Experts have told us that the young age of this transition, coupled in some cases with learning disabilities for example, can sometimes mean that an applicant doesn鈥檛 have the best understanding of the kind of nuanced answers that are required to score points in the PIP assessment process. We鈥檝e heard several examples of young people going through this process, and among those we鈥檝e heard about who have had their claims rejected, for example there鈥檚 a young person saying that he could prepare meals for himself, but the assessors weren鈥檛 aware of the fact that he鈥檇 blown up several microwaves in the course of a year.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Let鈥檚 bring in Holly Crouch now. Joanna interviewed you for her research.

HOLLY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Why did you get DLA in the first place?

HOLLY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, I have epilepsy. It was really impacting my life and the way I could do things, but it wasn鈥檛 just impacting mine, it was impacting my parents鈥�. It meant that I wasn鈥檛 able to do anything independently, even down if I wanted to go to the shops or just to town with my friends it meant that they had to be there really, taking me to school. So, it impacted the fact that the independence was completely lost, which made my parents have an extra cost that you don鈥檛 necessarily expect with a teenager. They don鈥檛 expect to be taking them everywhere and having to pay for the petrol to get everywhere. It just disrupted their lives as well as mine.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 been five years since you turned 16, but what happened when you got to 16 and you needed to change from Disability Living Allowance to Personal Independence Payments?

HOLLY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 a very complicated system probably is the first thing I鈥檇 say. It鈥檚 not an easy process to do, to the point that I didn鈥檛 do any of it, it was my parents. And originally, from what I know, my claim got rejected because I didn鈥檛 meet the points for PIP. And I think the main reason for this is epilepsy is such a fluctuating condition that you answer some of the questions, a bit like what was said before, I can cook, yes I鈥檓 very able to cook, but because epilepsy is so unpredictable I put yes, but realistically it鈥檚 one of those things that I can cook but if I鈥檓 using boiling water you鈥檙e subconsciously very, very careful. At any point I could have a seizure and then that means major potential burns and stuff. So, they鈥檙e very direct questions that you get asked; there鈥檚 no room for if, buts and maybes. And I think that鈥檚 something that needs to be changed because the form doesn鈥檛 necessarily allow for all of the different conditions.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And it鈥檚 hard, isn鈥檛 it, especially when you鈥檙e 16 to talk about in, say an assessment situation, the things you can鈥檛 do when you鈥檙e trying to find your place in the world and trying to work out what you can do and trying to do more than you should do in some ways, some points?

HOLLY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, 100%. But I found for me anyway you sort of hide how bad things are because you put on a smile and you want to make everybody鈥檚 life as easy as possible. And also everybody around you, all your peers are growing up to be able to do things that you can鈥檛, and you don鈥檛 necessarily want to admit that actually I can鈥檛 go to town on my own or I can鈥檛 get from A to B like you can. And it鈥檚 hard, because if you don鈥檛 have PIP or you don鈥檛 have the government鈥檚 almost faith you can鈥檛 get the things you鈥檙e entitled to; you鈥檙e not longer allowed to get the disability bus pass and the disabled person鈥檚 train pass, so it adds those extra costs that you don鈥檛 necessarily even think about. It builds up, it really, really does. I mean, at 16 I wasn鈥檛 able to hold down a job. They never say it obviously, but you do believe that you get turned down for little Saturday jobs and stuff because of the condition, the impact it might have on their work and business. I mean, even today I鈥檝e been turned down by an awful lot of jobs this year, so it means that my parents, literally I have no financial stability at all, they pay for everything, which is a massive drain.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, your benefits got cut and your parents lost their Carer鈥檚 Allowance for you. Did you or your parents appeal?

HOLLY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes. My mum was dealing with everything if I鈥檓 honest, because at 16 I was really, really unwell, was seizing, we were counting days, sometimes hours, we weren鈥檛 even on weeks yet between seizures. So, I wasn鈥檛 in a place mentally or physically to be doing stuff like this. But I know that we appealed and eventually I did get put on my PIP. It was tough, it was not fun. And then only last year they, you know when you have to renew things they do an assessment for you, they turned it down. They said no, you no longer meet the standards because you鈥檙e working, blah, blah, blah. And I鈥檓 still [laughs] waiting on the decision of the appeal.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, you鈥檙e waiting on a decision now. Are you getting benefits at the moment?

HOLLY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 No. So, it鈥檚 one of those where we appealed it, the appeal failed, so we were advised to resubmit. So, literally I posted the letter two months or so ago and we鈥檙e still waiting on a decision. But my fear is, if I鈥檓 honest that, hopefully it will be backdated to when the appeal started, but you never know because it鈥檚 a completely new submission. It鈥檚 hard, it鈥檚 very hard.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 What is the way forward? What is the solution so that this doesn鈥檛 happen to other 16 year-olds do you think?

HOLLY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think there needs to be a wider selection of options and answers within the actual form, as well as that you have to assess every condition in its own right. And I found when I was 16 and this time around that they try and put every condition in the same box, is what I鈥檝e seen.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, a more bespoke way of figuring out what disability benefits someone needs. Joanna, let me bring you back in here, what have the government said?

JOANNA-听听听听听听听听听听 We鈥檝e put all of these kinds of concerns to the government. They鈥檝e told us that there are going to be reforms to health and disability benefits and they will be set out within weeks. And they鈥檝e also said that a DLA award as a child doesn鈥檛 mean automatic entitlement to PIP. They鈥檝e said a young person can become more able to independently manage their condition as they grow older, meaning they鈥檙e no longer eligible for disability support. But they鈥檙e saying that their proposals for reform would provide children, young adults and their families with the kind of support they need, and then they finished by saying that they鈥檙e going to do this in a way that鈥檚 fair on the taxpayer, in a way that helps those that can work secure employment.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Joanna Morris, thank you for crunching the numbers and doing that research, and Holly Crouch, thank you for telling me about your experiences of applying for Personal Independence Payment as a young person.

HOLLY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 No worries.

JOANNA-听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听听听听听听

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Jonny Heaver was a contestant on the 麻豆社 reality TV show The Apprentice until last week. The tutoring company owner who has a facial difference became the latest person to be fired from Lord Sugar鈥檚 boardroom, and he鈥檚 with me now for his exit interview, it鈥檚 Jonny Heaver. Hi Jonny.

JONNY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hello. Thank you so much for having me, thanks Emma.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, describe The Apprentice for people who haven鈥檛 seen it.

JONNY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, The Apprentice is a 麻豆社 kind of reality competition show where 18 candidates battle it out to win Lord Sugar鈥檚 拢250,000 investment. And you鈥檙e put through a series of trials and tribulations, and then one or two or more people leave each week, and then Lord Sugar invests in the person鈥檚 business who wins the process.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 You were one of the 18 this time. What was the experience like?

JONNY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Just absolutely wild. It鈥檚 just bigger than you could ever imagine, bigger in the fact that so many tens of thousands of people apply, hundreds of camera crew. It鈥檚 just an incredible massive experience of which I completely loved being a part of and felt very lucky to be a part of as well.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Describe the final task which led to you getting fired?

JONNY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 We were jetted off to Turkey, which is incredibly exciting, where we had to put on a corporate awayday for some very highbrow clients, they were Vodafone and they wanted us to put on a big corporate awayday for them and their highest performers in their team.

[Clip]

NARRATOR-听听听听听 Back in Bodrum [Turkish music playing].

ANISA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Chisola said 250 euros max, so if you can get down to that we鈥檒l consider it.

NARRATOR-听听听听听 Weighing up whether to pay for pros鈥�

ANISA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Wow!

NARRATOR-听听听听听 Anisa, Emma and Jonny.

ANISA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Wow! [Applause] That was amazing, thank you so much.

JONNY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, what kind of price could you do for us?

FEMALE-听听听听听听听听听听 They want 500.

JONNY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 We were, kind of, thinking around about the 200 euros, so we were wondering if you could just come down any further?

FEMALE-听听听听听听听听听听 350 maybe.

JONNY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Um, if we were to, kind of, um, thinking could we maybe, we could maybe go up to 230. Do you think that would be okay?

FEMALE-听听听听听听听听听听 No, I cannot.

NARRATOR-听听听听听 Team building costs slashed.

ANISA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, it鈥檚 awkward.

NARRATOR-听听听听听 Dancers stood down.

[End of clip]

JONNY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think some bits we did well but other bits we didn鈥檛 do very well. Unfortunately we got criticism that the tour part of our corporate awayday was quite boring, which I do agree with. But there was a limited amount that we could do. And then it was followed by a three course meal on a boat as well with some character building activities [laughs] from Fred.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I mean, actually nobody really likes those sorts of awaydays, or lots of people don鈥檛, so you had a difficult audience.

JONNY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. I feel like with me and my team in the real world I鈥檇 just take them out for a meal.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 You put yourself up for manager that day and you didn鈥檛 manage to get that, but then you were offered the sub team leader, and you didn鈥檛 take it.

JONNY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 No.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And that seems to have not looked well. Why did you not take it?

JONNY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, that鈥檚 a really good question. So, I put myself forward for project manager because I really thought I鈥檇 be good at leading the team. I鈥檇 have put myself on the corporate side, not the catering side, so I鈥檇 be involved in negotiating the pricing and obviously putting on the tour itself. But then obviously Chisola got voted. Fine, that鈥檚 completely fine. But where I did not think my skillset would be utilised is by being on the catering side because my expertise does not lie in the kitchen, and actually I felt it would be disingenuous to put myself forward for leading a part of the team where my skillsets don鈥檛 lie. And I stand by that decision.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And you do have a facial difference. I鈥檓 blind actually so can you describe for me your facial difference, is that okay?

JONNY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. So, I was born with a giant CMN, it鈥檚 called for short, but like a melanocytic naevus covering half my face and head. It鈥檚 a big brown birthmark, and that鈥檚 what it was for me from birth. They do come in all shapes and sizes. It can be on your face, it can be on your body. So, obviously my parents had a really difficult time and had to make really difficult decisions in terms of whether to remove some of it or to leave it. But they decided to try and remove some of the CMN because there was a slight risk of it becoming malignant as well at that stage. So, they decided to get rid of some of it, which has left me with quite severe scarring as well. But that developed over the years into causing other problems, so I then had something called an ectropion, which is an eye droop, which caused a lot of pain and caused ingrowing eyelashes. So, I鈥檝e had a lot of surgery since, not only to remove the CMN but to correct what went wrong with removing the CMN, if that makes sense.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh gosh.

JONNY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, yeah, I鈥檝e had about 20, 25 operations since birth, so a lot of my life has been in hospital and out of hospital. But I do think that has made me more resilient, I 100% believe that, and it鈥檚 made me a good entrepreneur I think. So, I do feel I鈥檝e got challenges, whether they were laid out on that task or not I don鈥檛 know, but definitely in the world of business for sure.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 That task it was out in the country, it was hot, did it make you feel a bit rubbish as well?

JONNY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I do cope with a lot of pain on everyday life, but I鈥檓 kind of used to it. Because I live with constant pain it does become like a constant variable you can get used to, and I鈥檝e got used to navigating that. But no, I don鈥檛 think it massively held me back on the task per se. But I definitely do feel it鈥檚 made me more resilient as a character on the whole, because obviously, unlike some others I鈥檝e got to 鈥� you know what it鈥檚 like as well I鈥檓 sure 鈥� but when you walk into a room it鈥檚 not, 鈥極h Jonny, nice to meet you, you look fine鈥� it鈥檚, 鈥極h Jonny looks a bit different鈥� and you鈥檝e to work harder to win over that person in the room.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Tell me about looking different going through school?

JONNY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Occasionally I had a mean comment, but I鈥檝e been really lucky in my life that I鈥檝e actually never been bullied. I think the show is another one where that鈥檚 worked in my favour because of course I was ready and prepared and equipped for quite a lot of hate, because you know how harsh and rude people can be. But actually, of course if you search hard enough you鈥檒l always find a hater, but actually the public have really got behind me. And I found that so refreshing and so incredibly heart-warming.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And what about the other contestants?

JONNY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, they鈥檝e all been great. It was actually Melica, a fellow candidate, who really encouraged me to speak up about it after the show, because I鈥檝e always been a bit like, oh I don鈥檛 really want to speak about it hugely, because I think it鈥檚 that fine line between celebrating your differences but also drawing attention to it and maybe making more of a stigma of it than there has to be. I鈥檝e always kind of been on the fence. But actually it was Melica who spoke to me on the show and said, 鈥榊ou should really celebrate it and speak about it after the show鈥�, and I鈥檓 really grateful for the support she gave me on the show because if it wasn鈥檛 for her I probably might not be doing this now or even talking about it on TikTok or any of the things I have done. And I鈥檓 pleased it wasn鈥檛 addressed actually in boardroom one for example of the show, because what I鈥檓 also a big advocate for is actually facial differences shouldn鈥檛 be a barrier when going into new work, whether that鈥檚 The Apprentice or whether that鈥檚 actually just a normal job. It shouldn鈥檛 be something that鈥檚 immediately spoken about and quizzed upon in the first boardroom or the first day of work. But actually I鈥檓 really glad I did talk about it later in the process.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, what do you do when you鈥檙e not on reality television?

JONNY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs] I love my own business. Honestly, I live to work, but I do also have a social life as well. But my company is a tutoring company where we work with young people and help them equip their academic goals with, I guess, financial ethics being right at the centre of what we do. I鈥檓 really happy to say that I鈥檝e got a team of 35 now and yeah, we鈥檙e going from strength to strength. And The Apprentice has definitely accelerated that growth as well so I鈥檓 very grateful.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, that鈥檚 really good. And is it secondary school or university?

JONNY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, we do from three years old, learning to write and read, right up to 18 plus and adult education as well, but including GCSEs and A-levels, so we do everything.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And is it all, like, high-achieving children from families who can afford it? Or do you find, like we hear about a lot more disabled people struggling to get school places, struggling to get the right school places, maybe some more people being home schooled, have you found the clientele changing?

JONNY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, it is a big mixture because obviously one-to-one tutoring does have that stigma and it is something that鈥檚 expensive. But what we鈥檙e very transparent about at Achiever is people do pay different prices. Sometimes we鈥檒l take a cut from someone who can afford it and use the money we make from that to perhaps provide tutoring to a family who can鈥檛. Financial ethics and accessibility is what makes Achiever different, and we really try and stay true to that.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And what kinds of families would you support with a cheaper price tag?

JONNY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Every family鈥檚 different, but it could be someone whose child has got a disability. It could be a family who is a single parent with multiple children who don鈥檛 have that income or capacity to provide a lot of teaching for their own children so need a bit of extra support. It could be someone who is suffering with mental health and needs that extra boost outside of school. We work with a lot of students who actually realty struggle going in to school, and I think this is a huge pool of students who get forgotten by the system as well.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, you did say when you were going into The Apprentice, you said, I want to prove that nice guys can win.

JONNY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And you鈥檙e not 拢250,000 richer, you were fired, but do you think you鈥檝e proven that anyway?

JONNY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I hope so, I really do hope so. And obviously it is a reality show so there will be moments where it鈥檚 heated and there will be moments of heated discussion. But I do believe I stayed true to myself throughout all the episodes, and I didn鈥檛 do anything that I wouldn鈥檛 do in my own business in real life. And I do think I treated people well and with respect, and did prove that business doesn鈥檛 have to be as cutthroat as it鈥檚 sometimes perhaps portrayed on TV, and that the nice guy can go far. Maybe not win on this occasion [laughs], but that nice guy can definitely go far and do well in business.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, you got to week 6 so it鈥檚 no mean feat. What鈥檚 next?

JONNY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 What鈥檚 next? So, I鈥檓 still hugely committed to my business, and we鈥檙e looking for investment still, because it hasn鈥檛 come from Lord Sugar. We鈥檙e at a really exciting time for growth so very exciting.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 The Apprentice continues on 麻豆社 One on Thursday nights at 9pm, and it鈥檚 also on iPlayer. Jonny Heaver, thank you so much for talking to me on Access All.

JONNY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you so much for having me. It鈥檚 been a pleasure.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 That is about it for this episode. And actually to be honest I don鈥檛 usually call disabled people brave, we don鈥檛 like it, but wasn鈥檛 Jonny Heaver brave to put himself in that position in that boardroom? And what a great person to speak to. I learnt a lot about the inner workings of The Apprentice there as well. You can contact us, tell us what you think we should be talking about on accessall@bbc.co.uk. 0330 123 9480 is our WhatsApp number. And you can find us on social media, we鈥檙e @麻豆社AccessAll on X and on Instagram. And, if you haven鈥檛 already done so, please do subscribe to Access All on 麻豆社 Sounds. Hit that big button and you鈥檒l get us on your device every single week. See you later. Bye.听

[Trailer for Newscast]

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 You know when you鈥檙e worried about something, but then you talk to your friend who knows more about the subject than you do, and straightaway you start to feel better? That鈥檚 what we try and do every day on Newscast.

MALE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Now, they鈥檙e saying that that would be simple to do, it would give everyone certainty.

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 We talk to people who are in the news:

FEMALE-听听听听听听听听听听 You were chasing me round with a plate of cheese.

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 We talk to people who know what鈥檚 going on in the news:

MALE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 At least I didn鈥檛 get up and slap anybody.

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 We talk to people who understand what the news means:

MALE-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think that he鈥檚 decided he鈥檚 going to listen, and then he might just intervene.

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And we talk to the best 麻豆社 journalists, asking the most important questions:

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 What鈥檚 wrong with chinos? You don鈥檛 want them, people to start wearing chinos?

FEMALE-听听听听听听听听听听 Don鈥檛 start me, Chris.

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 Newscast from 麻豆社 News, the podcast that knows a lot of people who know a lot about the news.

FEMALE-听听听听听听听听听听 And I was like, go on Kate, put some more welly into it!

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Listen to Newscast every weekday on 麻豆社 Sounds.

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 glad I asked that.

FEMALE-听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 very glad that you asked that!

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