麻豆社

18th June 2025

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All 鈥� Benefits Special

Presented by Emma Tracey

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EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Hello. Thank you for tuning in, I鈥檓 Emma Tracey. If you鈥檙e a news junkie, you will know that the Universal Credit and Personal Independence Payment Bill was introduced to Parliament today. It will be voted on by MPs in two weeks鈥� time. A short while ago I was on 麻豆社 Radio 5 Live with a panel of experts answering all of your questions on proposed benefits changes included in the bill. So we鈥檙e going to listen to that. It鈥檚 one of two podcasts we鈥檙e putting out this week, and it starts off with Chris Warburton鈥檚 interview with Secretary of State, Liz Kendall.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听 Music.

[Clip]

LIZ-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I want to see fewer children and fewer individuals in poverty. That is why we are investing 拢1bn a year into employment support, because work, good work, is the route out of poverty, it鈥檚 a route to a better life, it鈥檚 actually a route to better health, physical and mental health too. And what we are trying to do here is start to shift spending from what I see too often is the cost of failure, a welfare system that actually traps people in welfare dependency. We have got to start making that shift. And let me just say this, I want to see disability benefits there for those with the highest needs, and I do not believe that a doubling the number of people on Personal Independence Payments from 拢2-4m over this decade, that is not sustainable for the very people who most need it.

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听 If we鈥檙e talking about projections, okay, and if we talk more broadly aside from just talking about PIP, when you came into power, the projections of the number of people on sickness benefit was 3.5 million rising to 4.1 million in three years鈥� time, essentially the working age population of Birmingham so people can get that into their head, which clearly you and most people would think is unsustainable. The trouble is, when you look at the new projections after your reforms, the official figures are pretty much exactly the same. So are these reforms actually about getting people back to work in the way you鈥檙e describing, or are they about saving money for the chancellor鈥檚 much needed [inaudible]?

LIZ-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I start not with a spreadsheet ever, I start with people, what is that will give people a better life? You鈥檙e right, there will be more people on sickness and disability benefits by the end of the parliament, but we are bringing that down.

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听 The same number.

LIZ-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 No, that鈥檚 not true, there will be fewer on both sickness and disability than there would have been. But they鈥檙e still rising.

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听 Well, they鈥檙e the official projections I鈥檓 talking about.

LIZ-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 That shows how difficult this is.

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听 The critics say it鈥檚 not really reform, it鈥檚 penny-pinching, and it鈥檚 going to be politically damaging for the government and not really improving lives.

LIZ-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I don鈥檛 agree with that. I鈥檒l tell you why I don鈥檛 agree with that. Because we鈥檙e putting in place the employment support people need actually to help them get into work. We鈥檙e removing the perverse incentives in the system. We鈥檙e actually going to legislate in this session for a right to try work, because too many people are worried that if they try work, it will lead to a reassessment of their benefits. We鈥檝e got to get rid of that.

[End of clip]

CLARE-听听听听听听听听 Liz Kendall, Work and Pensions Secretary speaking to Chris earlier. It鈥檚 quite a complicated issue, so we thought to help you through this and help answer some of your questions, we鈥檝e assembled a panel to go through some of the proposed changes, a panel of experts. Great to have them with us. Emma Tracey, 麻豆社 Journalist, presenter of the disability and mental health podcast Access All. Hi, Emma.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Hi, Clare.

CLARE-听听听听听听听听 We鈥檝e got Michael Buchannan with us, the 麻豆社 Social Affairs Correspondent. Hi, Michael.

MICHAEL-听听听 How are you doing, Clare?

CLARE-听听听听听听听听 Very well, good to have to you too. And Jasmine Anderson, Senior Social Affairs Reporter for Yahoo News. Hi, Jasmine.

JASMINE-听听听听 Good evening.

CLARE-听听听听听听听听 Brilliant to have you all. Now Emma, let鈥檚 start with PIP shall we?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Sure.

CLARE-听听听听听听听听 A brief explanation again, because we can鈥檛 go over this enough, what PIP is, and if you claim PIP right now, how you would get it and what you would use the money for?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Okay, Clare. PIP, Personal Independence Payment, is a non-means tested benefit, and it is for those who need extra support with various aspects of life due to a disability or a health condition. It鈥檚 split into two parts, there鈥檚 the daily living element and the mobility element. The daily living is around dressing, washing, eating, cleaning and communicating, and then mobility is I guess what it says, it鈥檚 about getting around. There are enhanced rates and there are rates of both, so two different rates. You get it by filling out a big form. It鈥檚 a tricky one to fill in, it鈥檚 about what you can鈥檛 do, so it鈥檚 a hard one on the head. Then you go and you get an assessment, usually in person, where there鈥檒l ask you lots of questions about what you struggle with as well. Then if you are rejected for that, you can appeal that as well.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 People spend the Personal Independence Payments on all sorts, all manner of things, Clare, that鈥檚 the thing about it, you can spend it on anything you need. I was just speaking to Rethink, the mental health charity earlier, and they were saying that some people actually spend it on very specialised treatment because the waiting lists are so long. Other people spend it on taxis to get to work. They might spend it to top up their salary if they are too sick or in pain or exhausted to work full-time. They might use it for a cleaner or a carer, gadgets, so so many different things that people use the Personal Independence Payments for.

CLARE-听听听听听听听听 Okay. We鈥檝e got a question from Chris. Just before we get to that, the government say by changing this they鈥檙e going to save quite a lot of money, they鈥檙e going to save 拢5bn. So the question is, by saving that money how are they saving it, and who will lose out?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 They鈥檙e looking to tighten the eligibility for who can get Personal Independence Payments. They鈥檙e focusing on the daily living aspect of PIP. Whereas before you could get 8 to 11 points to get the lower rate, the regular rate of daily living, you could use it by getting 2 or 3 points in lots of different areas, maybe you need for some of the time or a bit of help with some things, now you need to get 4 points on at least one activity. So there needs to be one activity within the daily living element that you struggle really a lot with.

CLARE-听听听听听听听听 Okay. This is from Chris. I鈥檓 desperately worried about the proposed cuts to welfare. I live in a home with 24 hour care. I receive a State Pension Credit and higher rate PIP for care and mobility. I pay 拢656 a month towards my care, as well as paying for utilities, food etc. I have cerebral palsy and a spinal injury, and I am paralysed from the neck down. I鈥檓 68 years old. I want to remain in my own home, but I鈥檓 scared that if they cut or reduce my benefits, I will be forced to go into care or hospital and then become a target 鈥� oh, this is very dark 鈥� for assisted suicide. I鈥檓 coping financially, but only just. Emma, what do you say to Chris?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 I do believe Michael Buchannan was trying to get in there to answer that one.

CLARE-听听听听听听听听 Oh, okay. Michael, do you want to come in? You answer that one, Michael.

MICHAEL-听听听 Okay. I was just going to say, there鈥檚 a special criteria called severe criteria conditions, and basically I don鈥檛 want to go into Chris鈥檚 particular condition, but essentially there are conditions that are unlikely to improve as the person ages throughout their life. What the government are saying, an extra 200,000 of those people will be given the certainty of knowing that their benefits won鈥檛 change. Because as you were just hearing, some of these PIP assessments they can be reassessed and people can have their conditions checked again. But these severe criteria conditions, and these are conditions like motor neurone disease, severe autism, Parkinson鈥檚, dementia, all chromosomal conditions, and let鈥檚 say a severe brain injury as well. Basically if it鈥檚 not going to get better, you will get the benefit and you won鈥檛 have to go through these reassessments. 听听 So potentially for someone like Chris, it might mean that if they are currently going through the assessments, they may stop.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 The other thing as well is that most of these changes are primarily targeted at working age people, so if you鈥檙e on pension there鈥檚 a potential that you will be less impacted. There鈥檚 a way in the bill that perhaps down the line the secretary of state could decide actually we鈥檙e going to exclude people who are also on the state pension from some of these changes. Most of what we鈥檙e talking about are for working age individuals.

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听 Thank you, Michael. Let me bring in Jasmine Anderson again, Senior Social Affairs Reporter for Yahoo News. Michael was talking about impact on individuals there. Tim Dixon鈥檚 been in touch saying, I鈥檓 worried that the government isn鈥檛 listening or assessing the impact of disability cuts, the cuts are deeply worrying. Has the government assessed the impact? I did get a bit into this with Liz Kendall actually, but what is the broad answer to that, Jasmine?

JASMINE-听听听听 Of course. The government is obliged legally to carry out an impact assessment when it does come to proposals like this. But the numbers do differentiate between the government鈥檚 own and what campaigners and other policymakers have said. The government鈥檚 own impact assessment indicates there鈥檚 about 800,000 people who are going to lose out on at least some of their current PIP payments. But when you look at the Joseph Rowntree Foundation鈥檚 figures, they say that 3.2 million benefit claimants in total could lose up to 拢12,000 a year in support. So there鈥檚 been a lot of conversations about what the government is and isn鈥檛 considering within that impact assessment. I know that another foundation, the new Economics Foundation, looked at the government鈥檚 figures and said that they estimate another 100,000 people with PIP alone are going to be affected. So while there is that scope there, and I鈥檓 sure the government will continue to reassess the impact down the line, there is of course those differentials that do need to be considered too.

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. And one thing I brought up with Liz Kendall actually was the government鈥檚 impact assessment, that these changes will leave an estimated quarter of a million more people in relative poverty after housing costs by the end of the decade. And that is a widely shared statistic, isn鈥檛 it? But her answer to that, and I just wonder if you鈥檝e got a brief answer, she said, 鈥淵eah, but the problem with that is, is that is being taken entirely in isolation, not taking into account other investments that we have made into what could end up in people鈥檚 pockets ultimately.鈥�

MICHAEL-听听听 I asked the DWP this earlier on, and I鈥檒l tell you the short answer is I haven鈥檛 got an answer. That impact assessment of a quarter of a million people extra being in poverty, that was published in March, and at the same time that that came out, the government said, 鈥淵es, but that doesn鈥檛 take into account the fact that we鈥檙e going to spend 拢1bn helping people move into work.鈥�

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 it.

MICHAEL-听听听 So what I say to the DWP today is, okay, you鈥檝e had three months to assess the impact of the employment support on that quarter of a million figure. Has that been done, has it been published, and will MPs have it before they vote on this in two or three weeks鈥� time? And I鈥檓 still waiting for an answer.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 It is really interesting actually that we don鈥檛 know what that support is going to look like. And Michael, we鈥檝e talked about this before, about getting the pathways to work advisers in, they want to get 1,000 in. They say that anybody whose benefits have changed will get an immediate call from them and to get support, health skills and work support, that meets their needs. Obviously we鈥檝e also got, they were talking about this right to try scheme where you can try work without potentially losing your benefits, and they want to bring out some draft legislation around that before the end of this parliamentary session actually. We鈥檒l be very, very interested to see what the right to try looks like, particularly because the disability employment gap has stayed very stubborn, 30%, for a very long time. So it鈥檚 the difference between the numbers of disabled people who work and the numbers of non-disabled people who work, despite many, many schemes. And Liz Kendall told you, Chris, that it was the biggest amount of money that they were going to put ever into employment support for disabled people. So, watch this space. It could be really positive, the right to try, and they could have something up their sleeves that they鈥檙e not telling us yet as well.

CLARE-听听听听听听听听 Okay, this is from Evelyn who鈥檚 texted in. Evening, Evelyn. Evelyn says this. I鈥檓 in my 70s, I get Attendance Allowance, but my health conditions are now much worse. Could I be entitled to PIP or anything else?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Anyone can apply for Personal Independence Payments. It鈥檚 not about what disability you have, it鈥檚 about the help you need. So you do what I said earlier, you fill in that form. And you do have to be really honest on the form, because it is really hard to talk about what you can鈥檛 do and the amount of help that you need from other people. But also Personal Independence Payments is a gateway benefit to other things like travel passes and some Carer鈥檚 Allowance as well. So I think anyone can apply for Personal Independence Payments if they feel like they need that support.

CLARE-听听听听听听听听 There you go, Evelyn, give it a go because you don鈥檛 know what you might be entitled to I guess is the answer there.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Yeah. And actually there鈥檚 a lot of benefits going that people are entitled to that they haven鈥檛 managed to apply for as well.

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听 Were you trying to get in there, Michael?

MICHAEL-听听听 When you were talking there, I was just looking on the Citizens Advice website for these kind of individual cases, and in the main if you鈥檙e not on PIP and you鈥檙e receiving the pension age, it鈥檚 highly unlikely that you鈥檙e going to get PIP. Attendance Allowances is seen as the benefit for people of pension age who might have got PIP at a younger age.

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听 I get a feeling you鈥檙e rarely off the Citizens Advice website, Michael.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 And isn鈥檛 that good news for all of us.

MICHAEL-听听听 We all have our weaknesses in life!

CLARE-听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 one of you bookmarks, isn鈥檛 it, Michael?!

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs] Home screen. This is from JuJu. What specific measures will the government put in place to prevent increased hardship or unjust denial of benefits for people with invisible, fluctuating or complex disabilities once the Work Capability Assessment is scrapped? There鈥檚 that question. But also, I don鈥檛 know whether someone might be able to explain what the Work Capability Assessment is as well? Anyone? I probably should have checked before did anyone want to take this question!

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 No, it鈥檚 fine. I think we all know. It鈥檚 an assessment that you go through, and it decides whether you are capable of doing work or capable of work related activity. Once you are assigned to whether you are able for that, then you go into the older benefits ESA, Employment Support Allowance, or the newer benefits which is the Universal Credit, and you get the health top-up for that. They鈥檙e proposing changes to that where they鈥檙e going to lower the amount that people get from 拢97 to 拢50 for new claimants. But that is still something that you can get. Scrapping the Work Capability Assessment, the plan I believe is that they鈥檙e going to use the Personal Independence Payment Assessment, but I don鈥檛 believe, Michael, we have any more information about how they鈥檙e going to make that work.

MICHAEL-听听听 No, not yet. This is essentially them setting out what they鈥檇 like to happen. There鈥檚 going to be more details emerging over the coming weeks and months, and also there will be pushback from some of their own Labour MPs as well as to what they will tolerate before they vote for this.

CLARE-听听听听听听听听 I鈥檝e got a question here from Sarah in Ipswich. Sarah says this. I have fibromyalgia, which is a real and potentially significantly disabling condition. I am worried about how I will fare after the changes. Does this go back to what we were talking about before I guess, Emma, which is the 4 points on at least one daily living activity?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Yes, it is. I think it鈥檚 really, really important to say that Personal Independence Payments isn鈥檛 about what disability you have, I know I鈥檝e said this about three times already but it鈥檚 really important for people who are really worried, it鈥檚 about the help you need. There鈥檚 no definite that you would lose it. I think the people who feel most fearful are people with invisible impairments: mental health difficulties; who are neurodivergent, because they are worried about the assessments and what can鈥檛 be seen and what can鈥檛 be explained and described. There is lots of evidence involved, you have to send in evidence to get your Personal Independence Payments. I can understand why people are fearful, but it really does depend on what you need help for and how many points that you can get for each of those activities in the daily living.

JINGLE-听听听听听听听 We鈥檙e not just a podcast. Find Access All on social media, and read our articles on the 麻豆社 News website.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Thanks for listening. That was Michael Buchannan and Jasmine Anderson and myself there talking about the proposed changes to disability benefits. We will be doing some more Q&As on the podcast very soon, so listen out for those. And keep your questions coming, contact us on email, accessall@bbc.co.uk, you can send them via X or Instagram @麻豆社AccessAll, or you can send me a WhatsApp voice message or a text message 鈥� you know I love a voice message 鈥� to 0330 123 9480. Stay tuned though because there is another podcast coming on this feed later this week with the lovely disabled comedian Rosie Jones. Chat soon. Bye.