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27th June 2025

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – Welfare Reform

Presented by Emma Tracey

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EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Twenty-four hours ago there were lots of rumblings and rumours about how the Prime Minister, Sir Keir Starmer, might handle welfare reform. But just after midnight major concessions came and everything changed. I’m Emma Tracey, and this is Access All.

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Theme music.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, it is not often that disability is front and centre of the news agenda, but proposed changes to disability benefits caused a huge rebellion within the Labour party, with at least 120 MPs putting their names to a reasoned amendment against the current bill. The government had proposed a tightening of eligibility for Personal Independence Payments, which would have affected 800,000 people. In terms of Universal Credit new claimants would see their health top-up drop from £97 a week to £50 a week. And that was all in a bid to save £5 billion, as predicted working age health-related benefits were due to cost an extra £30 billion by 2029 without reform.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Then, in the early hours of this morning, work and pensions secretary, Liz Kendall, released a letter to MPs with these concessions: there will be no change for people currently receiving Personal Independence Payments – and that’s 3.5 million people currently receiving this non-means tested benefit, which helps people who are disabled or who have health conditions with independent living. And there will be no cuts for people currently receiving the Universal Credit health top-up. Here’s secretary of state for work and pensions, Liz Kendall:

LIZ-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We also all agree that there do need to be changes in future to make sure that people who can work do so, we protect those who can’t, but that we make the welfare state sustainable for the future. These are really, really important decisions. We have listened to people, we have engaged with them; I think we are in a good place now.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Planned spending on employment support, which wasn’t due to come on stream until 2028, is being brought forward. And we will be particularly keeping an eye on the Right to Try scheme, which means that people trying a new job won’t necessarily lose their benefits. Also there’s due to be co-production with disabled people, which means that disability groups will be asked to help with future reform.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Mikey Erhardt has joined me from Disability Rights UK, a DPO, disabled persons’ organisation, which means that it is run by and for disabled people. Mikey, you’re welcome. Is Disability Rights UK happy with the concessions the government has offered?

MIKEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Unfortunately not, Emma. And thanks for having us on. I think from our perspective, and it’s not just ours, it’s shared across our sector, other DPOs today are putting out their statements to the same as us, which is a rejection of these concessions. They were leaked as being massive and game-changing almost, but in reality what we have now, if this goes through on Tuesday, is a two-tier system being offered: one where at which point in time you became disabled or your long-term health condition affected your ability to work or generated extra cost, that simply when that happened determines what kind of support you get from the benefits system. And that’s just not tenable, it’s not something that we can support, and it’s not something that disabled people or the public at large want.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, what would you like to have seen then? They’ve told us all along they need to make cuts, what should they have done?

MIKEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think realistically with this bill in particular the rushed nature of the consultation, the sort of attempt to brutally impose cruel cuts on the system, there needed to be a lot more time in the first instance. It’s been very obvious from day one, back when this bill was announced, that it wasn’t going to work as is, and that cutting people’s support via PIP or Universal Credit health and all the other options on the table at the moment, was not going to achieve any of the government’s goals. Our position is the same today as it was before these concessions were announced, which is this bill has to be withdrawn. They’ve got to go back to the drawing board, back to the table and figure out how we can actually make the benefits system work. A two-tier system is no better than one where they’ve cut 5 billion; it still means that disabled people will be going without and that disabled people will be worried and anxious about whether the next day will hold.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, we’ve learned that disabled people will formally be able to be part of recommendations that Stephen Timms will be involved in a co-production with disabled people going forward. That’s good news, isn’t it?

MIKEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý In theory yes. But you have to remember the Labour party did stand on a manifesto where they promised to work closely with disabled people, our organisations and the community on the benefit system at large, right. And despite those manifesto pledges we ended up in a position where they wanted to change the eligibility criteria and this bill was imposed, right? So, it’s going to be very difficult.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But they do have a consultation on some elements of planned welfare reform.

MIKEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Absolutely, there is a consultation and we know that the consultation events that they’ve been trying to hold have been really inadequate. There was one for the entirety of the northeast of England. The one in Wales was cancelled at short notice. And we know that for organisations like ourselves, campaigners, it’s actually been really difficult to even get to the in-person consultation events. There’s no indication from today’s news that that process will get better or easier or more open. And you have to remember even through the consultation process how long it took to get basic things like accessible formats ready. Will we get new accessible formats about the concessions today so that disabled people who require them can understand what’s happening? I doubt it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. Regarding the bill, what opportunity did your organisation and others that you know of have to put forward your concerns?

MIKEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’ve been communicating with ministers, both formally and informally, publicly and in private for months. And they know our position, they know that we think this is a terrible idea. And I think they’ll understand today and see from the public outcry that we still feel they’re making the wrong decision. I think ultimately with ministers they’re still trying to hit this arbitrary fiscal figure, they’re trying to make maths work and forgetting about the people’s lives that this will impact.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But are they forgetting about the people’s lives? Because they have said that they will bring forward job support that was due to come into play in 2028, this £1 billion, they’re going to bring that forward. That’s good news, isn’t it? That shows that maybe they are thinking about disabled people.

MIKEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý In theory yes. But I think what’s been difficult for us as organisations to understand is what will that billion actually pay for? Is it going to be £1 billion that’s spent on the most effective job support? Which we know at the moment from DWP studies isn’t working that well, even the most intensive job support that they can offer. Or is it £1 billion of trials of tests? It’s going to be really hard for MPs who have to vote on this in four days’ time to even know if that £1 billion being moved forward is actually good news or not, because the DWP has shared so little information about what they’re even going to spend it on.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do you know any more information about what they’re going to spend it on? You mentioned trials and tests, which is really interesting because schemes so far have not worked so well that they will need to start from scratch in some ways. Do you know any more information about what they’re going to spend that money on?

MIKEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No. And we did actually work with some MPs to put in some written questions, and we got back very little information from it. It’s on the public record now what they’ve been saying. And there’s just not enough information from our perspective for MPs to feel like they could vote through what are still going to be really substantial cuts to the benefits system. We’re still going to see hundreds of thousands of people who would have got PIP not get PIP, hundreds of thousands of people who would have got Universal Credit support not get it under these new proposals. There’s no way that MPs can really make a sound judgement. They have to trust their colleagues now on the front bench who, up until literally last night, were telling them that no concessions were going to happen and that it’s all going to be fine. I think that risk is just too big for anyone to take.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You talked about Universal Credit there. I know in the consultation was the piece where under 22 year-olds may not get the health top-up. Are there going to be any concessions made on that? Has there been any new information on that suggestion?

MIKEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We haven’t seen anything on that, and we’d hope to see that being removed in the bill in any case. Such an arbitrary decision on who does and doesn’t get support has always felt to us as being both cruel and unworkable, so we’d hope to see that go.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Can you give any insight into why 22, why they’ve gone for that age?

MIKEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, unfortunately not, Emma. And it’s baffled us the whole time, and we got very little information back. It’s felt similar to the sort of arbitrary decision making around the PIP eligibility criteria. We didn’t really feel like any of the ministers of department’s responses on why that number, you know, that the points scored at four was somehow okay when three or two wasn’t. We never got information about that, and so again couldn’t tell you more unfortunately.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay.

MIKEY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We actually have research out yesterday that showed that less than a third of the public supports the cuts. And when we were talking to the researchers that we did that with they found it really interesting how closely aligned the public at large is now with the disabled community about these cuts. Around 60% of people more generally want to see the government find savings from somewhere else. They don’t want people to lose benefits; they want the government to use cost saving measures elsewhere. And I think that really is down to the strength of the community and us being public and present and being on shows like yours today, talking about what this really means. Because the government have always just been talking about this in terms of numbers, but we know and you know it’s people’s lives, right.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Mikey Erhardt there joining me from Disability Rights UK. And it does seem that even with the concessions proposed by the government, Disability Rights UK feel that disabled people are going to continue to lose out.

When details of the government’s proposed welfare changes came out, ÌýLabour MP Ian Byrne was quoted as saying that he would rather swim through vomit than vote for them. A couple of days before the bill is due to be voted on let’s find out where he stands:

Ian, some people are calling it a two-tier system where one set of disabled people will get a certain level of benefit, but new claimants will get a lower amount of money, people are worried about that, disabled people are worried about, as you said, trying a job and then coming back, which we don’t have any detail on how that’s going to work. Those sorts of situations, politicians are saying, happen when there are any changes to disability benefits. Many people across the board say that there does need to be reform. Does that not just come with the territory?

IAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, not at all. No, it doesn’t. No, it doesn’t. You’ve got to have consistency. Now, I’m fully in favour of reforms, and I’ve said that, but I’m fully in favour of reforms that have been built by people with disabilities, people who this is impacting on; not politicians and legislators. And that top-down element of it without disabled people at the heart of this legislation is a huge part of why I’m so against it, and a lack of meaningful engagement with disabled groups.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But they have said that they will formally bring disabled people in now going forward and co-produce with them.

IAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh yeah, well, I’ll tell you what, why don’t we just pull the bill, Emma, and why don’t we do all that before I go to a voting lobby? This is what I’m asking for.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And they’ve also said that they’ll bring forward the employment support, the £1 billion a year. That wasn’t supposed to happen until 2028. They’re going to bring that forward now. We haven’t got a massive amount of detail about what that will include, but that’s another concession that’s worth thinking about, isn’t it?

IAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý They’re all good concessions, they’re all what we asked for. Nobody asked for the sequences to change. But where we are now, Emma is – and you’ve said it a couple of times – we haven’t got that much detail, we haven’t got that much detail. I’m going to be asked on Tuesday to go for a second reading on something which is going to affect over 10,000 of my constituents. We signed the reasoned amendment because we didn’t have the full detail of what that would actually entail for them people and what legislation changes, how that would affect them. Now we've got more concessions because the government’s panicked because it’s such a bad piece of legislation and MPs were going to vote it down. Now we’ve got so much confusion, as I said, I was fielding questions late into the night last night, and I had no answers. People who are terrified, who are desperate, who are asking, well you’re the MP, you’re the one debating it and talking about it in parliament, surely you should know. This is it exactly, I don’t. So, for me, and I say this with absolute sincerity because I’m so bloody angry at the moment about what’s actually happened, pull the bill, pull the bill, take time, dialogue with the people that it’s going to impact, let’s create something which is fairer, equal, equitable, works, gets those that want to work into work, gets those that need to be protected, protected, and let’s do it in a manner which has got true Labour values. I’m going to have to go to a voting lobby on Tuesday and a week later, a week later they’re talking about a third reading with hardly any scrutiny. How is that fair? How is that right? How have you even got the full knowledge at your fingertips as an MP to make a decision which will impact so many of my constituents and indeed across the country? And that’s exactly how I feel, Emma.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And do you know whether the reasoned amendment has been pulled?

IAN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I don’t know that yet now. To my knowledge it hasn’t, so we’ll see. We’ll see what happens come Monday, Tuesday.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ian Byrne there, Labour MP for Liverpool West Derby. Now, we have been trying to speak to someone who is in agreement with the government, and we’re sure many people have changed their minds overnight, but we haven’t been able to get hold of anyone. And minister for disability and social security, Stephen Timms, declined our request for an interview. To get the government’s viewpoint then, let’s turn to an interview our colleague, Nick Robinson, did for the Today programme with health minister, Stephen Kinnock, after that late night climbdown:

NICK-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý A U-turn announced after midnight with unexplained cost to the taxpayer, but a guarantee that it will cost us all more, it’s not competent government that, is it?

STEPHEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think it’s been a positive and constructive process. When you’re looking to reform a complex system there is of course always a debate and discussion about the best way to do that. I have huge respect for my colleagues across the parliamentary Labour party who have stood up for their constituents and made the case. But also as the government, as ministers we are laser focused on reform: we’ve got to reform a broken system. The system we inherited is neither a safety net nor a springboard, which is what social security should be about. And I think the package of reforms that we are going to now bring forward on Tuesday has improved as a result of the conversations that we’ve been having with colleagues across the parliamentary Labour party.

NICK-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý A positive and constructive process is an intriguing way of describing ignoring your colleagues entirely, waiting until they get enough numbers to guarantee that the government is defeated, denying that you will change the policy and describing those colleagues as noises off, and then panicking and after midnight issuing a letter saying oops, we’ve changed our minds.

STEPHEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, what we’ve got is a package that is going to protect those who are currently on PIP and on the health element of Universal Credit.

NICK-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Sure, but you didn’t listen to colleagues, did you? Not you personally because you're not responsible for the policy, Mr Kinnock, but you didn’t. And you’ve just heard Meg Hillier say what the lesson should be is that you’ve got to listen to people with, in her words, huge talent, knowledge and experience. Has the Prime Minister got that message?

STEPHEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Look, there’s a legislative process, and you bring forward a bill as the government and you usually at second reading it’s a discussion about the principles of the bill. But because of the way that colleagues have stood up for their constituents and made these arguments we’ve ended up talking about the implementation of legislation, which is normally what you do at committee stage when you amend a bill to improve it. So, we’ve brought that process forward, but the legislative process is standing.

NICK-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But this wasn’t about reform, was it? This was about simple cost cutting. It was about the Chancellor saying, I need a few billion quid. It was all done at the last minute, as you know, and a few billion quid, let’s get the disabled to pay. It was nothing to do with a reform process, which is an important conversation but a different conversation.

STEPHEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý This is about dignity and respect. This is absolutely the driver is reform, because what you’ve got at the moment is a system where people are being written off, where they’re just being labelled as incapable of working, which is often the worst thing for them, both for their physical and mental health. So, the driver for this is about fixing the system. We have in Keir Starmer a Prime Minister who doesn’t put problems into the too difficult box…

NICK-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, forgive me, the driver was finding money.

STEPHEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý …he actually tackles them...

NICK-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It wasn’t in the original proposals.

STEPHEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý …and he gets stuck into them.

NICK-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý it wasn’t in the original proposals this cut to Personal Independence Payment. It was inserted by the Chancellor at the last minute when her sums didn’t add up. And given the choice explained to Labour supporters who voted for change, that’s what it said on the front page of your manifesto, why a Labour government, a Labour Prime Minister thought it was right that when you were short of a few billion quid you turned to the disabled to pay for it.

STEPHEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý When you reform a complex system you have to draw the line somewhere. You either do the reform in one big move or you do it in a more phased and staggered way. What we have now is a package that is in the latter camp; it is about that phased and staggered approach where those who are on the PIP and the health element of Universal Credit are protected now. But from November 2026, following an in-depth engagement with disabled people, my colleague Stephen Timms will be leading that review and co-producing the recommendations, from November 2026 we will have a system that does two things: it will protect the most vulnerable, provide them with a safety net, and it will also provide a springboard for those who are able to work. And we’ve got a whole range of proactive labour market measures coming forward to support people in Job Centres, through the health system to get back on their feet. And that’s one of them.

NICK-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Let’s talk about the practicalities of that, if we could. What in simple terms it means, as we were just hearing just in discussion with Meg Hillier, is that new claimants will get less benefit if they have the same problem as an old claimant. So, to put it simply when you talk about dignity why is it dignified to say to someone who can’t pull up their own trousers that they will now get up to £110 a week as a special benefit, but if their neighbour discovers that they have this same disability they won’t get the £110? How is that dignified?

STEPHEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, for somebody with that level of need it’s almost certain that they will continue to get the protection that they currently have. I can’t give you a specific answer.

NICK-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý As I read it they will get two points under the PIP payment scheme and not four points which you will need in order to get that payment. That is the description we’re being given of who will lose benefit in the future.

STEPHEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Every individual is different and everybody has to be assessed by a professional assessor. So, I don’t think it’s a good idea for me now to generalise without knowing the specific circumstances of that person or, if you like, case study that you just set out there.

NICK-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But the principle remains the same, doesn’t it Mr Kinnock, that there will be some people who have the same disability as their neighbour but as a result of this concession they will be £5,700 worse off a year than their neighbour?

STEPHEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But we’re also pre-empting the review that Stephen Timms is doing. And fundamentally he’s going to be having exactly that conversation, which is how do you ensure that there aren’t anomalies in the system, that people are treated fairly, that those who are the most vulnerable are protected. But how do we also reform the system, which everybody agrees on the system is broken after 14 years of Tory neglect and incompetence. And that’s what we’ve got to fix. So, it’s about getting that balance right.

NICK-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, more changes might come as part of that consultation.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And at the end there, as Nick Robinson rushed to fit all his questions in, you did hear Stephen Kinnock say yes, more changes will come after consultations with disability groups, and they will be led by disability minister, Stephen Timms. We’ll be back with another episode of Access All on Wednesday. Until then have a lovely weekend. Bye.

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’re not just a podcast. Find Access All on social media and read our articles on the Â鶹Éç News website.

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