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24th September 2025

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – Ep 179

Presented by Emma Tracey

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EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello, I’m Emma Tracey. This is Access All. And later in this week’s episode I’ll be speaking to autistic politic US based journalist, Eric Garcia about Donald Trump’s announcement on Monday night around autism. Here’s a flavour of that:

ERIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now it seems like we’re back where we started where we’re spreading more stigma and spreading more negative information, and blaming the mothers again.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý More of that later. Now, last week on Access All we talked about an app for neurodivergent people, a dating app. One of the aspects of that app was a wheel, and everywhere the wheel could stop was a question. And the questions were designed for dates to ask each other and they were supposed to help with communication. So, we thought, myself and Juliette who is back with me this week…

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I said I’d be back.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But I didn’t realise it would be this week.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And I’m very excited.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, one of the reasons you’re back is because we promised in to bring in a wheel this week, like the one on the app, because it excited us so much. You have set up a game with a wheel. Over to you.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I have. So, I rummaged around all my boardgames and I did find a wheel, but we realised it’s inaudible to hear that wheel. So, the spinning wheel is now going to be a spin the bottle, and around the bottle we have lots of different questions that producer, Damon, and I have come up with to ask Emma. So, Emma, are you happy for me to spin the bottle for you?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hugely unhappy, but yes, please do it because I think it’ll be safer if you spin it.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s consensual, okay here we go. First spin for your first question. First question is: if you could implement one rule in the world right now what would it be?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Bring driverless cars into the UK and immediately allow blind people drive them.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Amazing. You didn’t even have to think about that. That’s great. Next question, here we go. Oh, I’m enjoying this too much. Have you always been happy describing yourself as disabled? If so or if not why?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think when I was young in the 1980s I, like a kid, a small child, I would always have said I was blind, and I don’t think there was any way around that, and I don’t think I either liked it or hated it; it was just that’s what it was. I think when I was that age I thought disabled was wheelchair user.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You were happy to call yourself blind instead of disabled?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. So, blind it absolutely was just the practicalities of what I was: I can’t see. It wasn’t a political thing or I didn’t think of it as part of my identity until I was in my late teens, early 20s and then went to university and I started doing some disability related radio stuff. Yeah, I think I was probably in my late teens, early 20s before I allied myself with other disabled people, just because I didn’t know any better or different.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I love what you said about identity. Identity is political, that’s unfortunately but par for the course. And one last question: ooh, chocolate or strawberries?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, um, strawberries are amazing for a very short time of the year, and if they’re local and if they’re fresh. But chocolate can be your friend all year round.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Love it. Thank you very much being my interviewee Emma Tracey!

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you. It’s been a pleasure, it’s been a pleasure. It was very weird. I’m not sure I want to do this every week.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, you can come round and play boardgames at my place.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I would do that.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Let’s do that.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Let’s do that. But do you know what, first we’d better get on with the show.

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Theme music.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello. This is Access All. I’m Emma Tracey. If you haven’t done so already please do subscribe to us on Â鶹Éç Sounds. We have an episode every single week and some extra ones too. You can get in touch with us, we’re accessall@bbc.co.uk on the email. And our number for WhatsApp is 0330 123 9480. We’re on social media too, we’re on X and we’re on Instagram @Â鶹ÉçAccessAll.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Juliette Burton is with me for the headlines.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, I’m very excited by this. I love being back here. It’s lovely to see you, Emma.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s very nice to be in person. Last week we were in different places. This week we’re together in the studio in London. And let’s talk about AI, because AI is a huge thing I think in the world, but in the disability world all together. As a blind person I use AI a lot. And in fact apparently it could detect signs of mental illness.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Apparently researchers in Japan are using artificial intelligence to analyse people’s facial movements and detect subtle signs of depression.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What do you have to do? Do you have to go into a little booth and say, am I depressed, am I not, and then press a button and they follow your face for a bit?

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s something to do with them analysing your micro movements in your facial muscles. They analyse them and see if they’re consistent with patterns among people who reported feeling depressed. So, it’s something to do with subthreshold depression, or STD for short – which I thought meant something very different so that’s an interesting thing.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That is an acronym I’ve not heard used before.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] and then they also say that the artificial intelligence analysis reveals specific patterns of eye and mouth movements, such as the inner brow raiser, upper lid raiser, lip stretcher and mouth opening actions. I thought that the inner brow raiser, upper lid raiser and lip stretcher were all things that you could get at facial Botox clinics.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý To do it for you?

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. Apparently the results of this were consistent with AI analysis that students observed videos of people’s facial movements and rated how expressive, friendly, natural and likeable the students seem. And those who reported depressive symptoms were deemed less friendly, expressive and likeable than those who didn’t report feeling depressed.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ouch!

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, I feel a bit insulted by this. Firstly, I think people with depression, like myself, can absolutely mask it very well, and we can seem very, very happy. But it sounds more like they’re analysing via this AI resting bitch face.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] no, but you see I think with depression, even if you are depressed that’s a bit unfair to say that it makes you less likeable.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I completely agree; I know a lot of depressed people, there’s a hell of a lot of people I know who are very depressed, but clinically depressed people I don’t think it makes you less likeable at all. But then I would say that because I have been diagnosed with aÌý clinical depression [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. Do they offer any solutions?

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, they say that with this technology it might lead into new savings in healthcare symptoms because it can be diagnosed sooner. And in one sense, if I was playing devil’s advocate, I would say that that might mean that people can get interventions sooner. On the other hand though AI might be taking over from humans actually having empathy and chatting to you and a human diagnosis. A lot of research in the last few years has shown that mental health is significantly improved by social interaction, so festivals, communities, actually getting out there and being with people, rather than being at home and being diagnosed by an AI.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. And AI is not always known for its subtlety, like the AI responses you get, or its empathetic tones and stuff like that, and saying things like, turn that frown upside down.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah [laughs]. I once asked my smart speaker when I was in the midst of a very, very depressive phase, I said, ‘Name of smart speaker, I need help’. And the answer that I got was, ‘If this is an emergency please contact the emergency services, otherwise if it’s a technology problem then I can help you, such as with Bluetooth’. And I thought are they the only two options that you get if you’re in the middle of a depressive episode, struggle with your mental health, police or Bluetooth; if you struggle opening a can of beans, police or Bluetooth.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Even the NHS has started to use AI for some sort of therapeutic mental health stuff.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, and it does save money, so that is the one side of it. But then how much damage is it going to be to remove the humans out of these sorts of things? Because mental illness is one of the most human things that we can have.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, it’s one of those things where there will be studies in a few years and maybe we’ll say, that was a really bad idea; or maybe it’ll totally change the face of therapy. Do you have a Blue Badge?

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I don’t have a Blue Badge. Do you?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do you have somebody else’s Blue Badge?

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I do not have anybody else’s Blue Badge [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Because apparently there’s more Blue Badge fraud – so Blue Badges are the badges we use for disability parking, wheelchair using spaces or other spaces that are easier for disabled people to use which might be closer to a shop or whatever – but apparently there’s more fraud than ever before, Juliette.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, apparently Blue Badges are being faked, doctored, stolen and sold online according to fraud investigators. So, lots of people are using them, family members are using them without needing them, and even badges of people who have sadly passed away. I mean, I don’t think I would ever do this because, again, it feels like a bit of an attack on people who need them. I don’t have that access need right now, maybe I will in the future. There’s limited spaces, why would people be doing this?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, it’s a money thing. Lots of people are struggling financially I suppose. Also I think it is get awayable, withable.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Get awayable, withable [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, it’s a very old technology I feel like, Blue Badges. You get this laminated piece of paper, which in mine it has braille saying front, on the front of it. You put it in your window, and if you’re being fraudulent or anything you hope that a warden will just glance in and see you’ve got one and then keep going. I mean, I know that some boroughs in London have tried electronic badges, just having someone’s car details, number plate or whatever in the system as being a Blue Badge holder. But then you’re stuck to which car you’re in. You know what I mean?

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, some people with Blue Badges want to change cars. So, it’s fascinating to me that it’s something that can be defrauded so badly. I’m sure there are innovations, we’ve talked about some of them over the years. But I was in my local café the other day and she said, ‘Do you have your stamp card?’ and I was like, ‘No, I never have my stamp card, I lose them, I don’t know what they are’.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý This is not a disability related stamp card, this is just for coffee?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, this is for my coffee. But I think it’s a taxi receipt so I put it in the taxi receipt wallet. Do you know what I mean? I just don’t deal with those cards well. But the lady in the café was like, ‘I can’t use an online system or an app or anything because most of my customers are older people who wouldn’t deal well with that’.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, you have to, especially for a Blue Badge which has every type of person needing one and many, many people are older, frail, people are having carers manage them for them, family members, it has to be a really simple thing, doesn’t it?

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think the people who are committing this fraudulent act they think it’s victimless. But it isn’t, is it?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I have one because I can’t see and I can get one. I don’t always use it.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You need it, yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But I do use it if someone needs to drop me off and I’m by myself and it’s really busy and I don’t know my way. Because often with a blind person the hardest bit is the last few metres, so sometimes a Blue Badge is handy in that way. I don’t always use it. I don’t use it if I don’t need it. But I can see the appeal because it gets you out of the congestion charges in London.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý They do. It’s £15 a day as well that, so that’s quite a lot to save.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s quite a lot. And parking can be £5.90 per hour in some parts of southeast England according to the article that we’ve got in front of us, so that can really add up. Again, no excuse, but you can see the appeal.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý In some towns I’ve been to parking can be £25, £30 a day.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’d like to see, maybe soon we can get some innovators in to say how they would solve this Blue Badge problem.

Juliette, according to Audit Scotland, a public spending watchdog the Scottish government has no plan to fill a £770 million disability benefit gap. Earlier this year Scotland brought in the Adult Disability Payment, and they were able to do that because they get money from the UK government to cover lots of things, but some of those are devolved, which means that they get to make the decisions about what happens. And that is the case with non-means tested disability benefits, they are devolved, so they make decisions about how those benefits are decided upon and how much money is given etc. etc. And they’ve created a system which they say gives disabled people more dignity and is kinder. They’ve had a lot of new recipients of Adult Disability Payment in the last year or so, and they’ve moved lots and lots of people over from DLA as well. So, they’ve got 500,000 people on this benefit. What they often do actually is they take money from other places within the Scottish government to pay for disability benefits because they do always have a bit of a gap. But they have a bigger gap now which they need to figure out how to plug, so it will be interesting to know how they’re going to do that. And I’m going to follow that over the next year or two and see how that is resolved, because it’s interesting, isn’t it, where they take money from.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. They don’t have PIP, they have ADP, adult.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Adult Disability Payment instead of PIP. But what isn’t devolved is the means tested disability benefits and the out of work benefits, the Universal Credit. So, that still is looked after by the UK government, and what’s interesting is we had Henry Zeffman, political correspondent on from the Â鶹Éç a couple of weeks ago who was talking about Pat McFadden becoming the head of the Department for Work and Pensions, who look after Universal Credit. And he was basically saying that now that Pat McFadden is in place that welfare reform might be looked at again before the end of the Timms Review which is underway, which is looking at how changes can be made to Personal Independence Payments. But there’s a kind of a feeling that stuff might happen in the interim. So, Zoe Conway, Â鶹Éç’s employment correspondent, got to speak to Pat McFadden the other day, and she asked him about that as well:

[Clip]

ZOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You are a reformer to your bones. You’re a man known for caring about fiscal responsibility, the taxpayer, the public purse. It’s very difficult to believe that over the next year you are not going to be looking at making further changes; further changes, not what you’re already doing. But looking at, for example, eligibility of Universal Credit, that you’re going to make some announcements.

PAT-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Look, I’ll always look at the system, and I will do everything I can to make sure the system supports opportunity for people. That’s what the Labour Party is about, work is in our name, work is in the title of the department, I want us to be a department that helps people into work. I can think we can do more on that. I don’t think the system does that adequately at the moment. There are design flaws in it. We’ve got to look at those to make sure that we do not write people off and forget them because of a one-time judgement that they’re unfit for work.

ZOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And you’re still not interrupting me. [Groaning noise].

[End of clip]

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I love those noises at the end.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I thought that was you for a second! [Laughter]

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, that was Zoe getting interrupted and not being able to ask more questions.

JULIETTE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That was the sound of frustration.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, exactly. I think what he’s saying there is that he’s looking at going back to the drawing board a little bit and looking at what else can be moved or changed. So, again definitely don’t want to put fear into people because we have no idea what’s coming down the tracks, apart from what we know already and we know that decisions are yet to be made on aspects of Universal Credit and money has been allocated to help disabled people get back into work. But we still don’t know what Pat McFadden is going to do, so interesting to keep an eye on that as well. Juliette, thank you for helping me out with the headlines this week. Juliette Burton.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you, my very fashionable friend, Emma.

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’re not just a podcast. Find Access All on social media and read our articles on the Â鶹Éç News website.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý On Monday night President Donald Trump made an announcement about autism. He linked the use of paracetamol and vaccinations to autism. It was immediately debunked by medical experts around the world, but the President has said that he plans to take action on it in America. We know Donald Trump’s words will be widely reported, both in the mainstream media and on social media. And the Â鶹Éç has an important role in ensuring that audiences have the correct facts around paracetamol, autism and vaccinations. And also in communicating accurate, reliable information from scientists and medical experts based on the scientific evidence. With me I’ve got health reporter, Jim Reed, to tell me more about this story. Hi, Jim.

JESSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hi, Emma.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What has the President been saying about paracetamol?

JESSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, the brand that keeps coming up here in all these speeches is Tylenol which, if you don’t know, is the most common brand of paracetamol used in North America. So, it’s essentially exactly the same thing in the UK you’d go into a pharmacy to buy or in a supermarket to buy. And as you say, the most headline grabbing thing I think Donald Trump’s said this week is linking paracetamol use in pregnancy to autism in children. He said that it was no good, for example, no good at all to use paracetamol under those circumstances. He said mothers should tough it out and fight like hell not to take a paracetamol pill and only use one if they had an exceptionally high fever. Now, obviously these comments are controversial and very contested. Wes Streeting, the UK health secretary said, ‘I trust doctors over President Trump frankly, and urge pregnant women not to pay – in his words – any attention whatsoever to the US president’. Now, bearing in mind that Mr Streeting is a Cabinet minister in the Westminster government I think those are very strong words.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý He hasn’t just said this in a vacuum. Advice is going to be given to doctors in the US around women and how they should use paracetamol in pregnancy, also around vaccines. For people in the UK, Jim, who listened to President Trump’s announcement who are listening today what’s the advice for them from medical professionals here just now?

JESSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I thought it was interesting that just before President Trump’s address the MHRA, which is the medicines regulator in the UK, which is quite a conservative organisation, it doesn’t often speak out about these things, they issued what can only be described as kind of a rebuttal statement in advance. They stated there’s no evidence, no evidence, that taking paracetamol during pregnancy can cause autism in children, and they say paracetamol remains the recommended pain relief option for pregnant women. I think it’s also worth pointing out, and they make this point, that untreated pain and fever if you’re pregnant, and there is evidence of this, can pose a risk to the unborn baby. So, there was this argument that Donald Trump was making this week which was that well, actually you might as well not use paracetamol because there’s no downside if you just don’t use it. Actually what the medicines regulator is saying is look, there actually could be a downside because if you do not treat fever that can pose a risk to your unborn baby. So, they’ve been very strong coming out like that. It does leave women actually in quite a difficult situation in many cases because ibuprofen is not normally recommended in pregnancy, unless it’s prescribed by a doctor, especially if you’re more than 20 weeks pregnant, and other forms of pain relief are also not recommended. So, for the NHS, for the medicines regulator it is paracetamol which is the main recommended frontline pain relief pill that’s recommended for pregnant women.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, just to reiterate, Jim, for people in the UK it’s business as usual?

JESSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. I don’t think people are going to stop taking paracetamol as a result of what he’s said. But I think a lot of these issues, and we were talking about vaccines earlier on, we’re living through a time, we have lived through a time back in the late 1990s where there were big scare stories about the use of the MMR vaccine and its link to autism. Now, those later proved to be completely debunked and the doctor involved, Andrew Wakefield, ended up being struck off as a result. But we did see a big fall off in young children being vaccinated, being given the MMR at the time. And I think one of the concerns here is could we see similar sort of reactions today, not necessarily with the vaccines, although that certainly is a concern from people I’ve spoken to, but also with paracetamol use as well. Even with the NHS and the MHRA making these very, very clear statements about the safety of paracetamol I think the concern from some will be that the words of the President will potentially have an effect.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Jim Reed, thank you. I am now joined by US political journalist, Eric Garcia, who is himself, I think it’s okay to say, autistic, to talk about this. Hi, Eric.

ERIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý How are you doing?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m doing great, thank you. Now, Eric, what are people saying about President Trump’s announcement?

ERIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think there’s a mixture of horror and just absolute shock at the fact that the President just could absolutely say, without any kind of substantiation at all, don’t take Tylenol, really just spouting this information and spreading stigma around autism. It’s really caused a lot of dejection.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Is that reflected in the autism community itself?

ERIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, absolutely. I think that there’s a mixture of using humour to get through it, but also just a great amount of fear about what comes next.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s putting the focus back on parents, isn’t it? Because many years ago parents were blamed for their children being autistic. Tell us a wee bit about the history and how it’s maybe come back around a little bit.

ERIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, it really does feel like a whole circle thing because back in the day there used to be talk about refrigerator mothers and how there’s those who are unloving enough and defrost just enough to produce a child. There was researcher Bruno Bettelheim who talked about doing a parentectomy, removing autistic people from their parents. And it caused a lot of pain and a lot of hurt. And now it seems like we’re back where we started where we’re spreading more stigma and spreading more negative information, and blaming the mothers again.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Tell me, Eric, a bit more about Robert F. Kenndy Jr. He wants to collect data about autistic people to find out more, doesn’t he?

ERIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, he does. Well, he also wants to spread a lot of other misinformation about there being an autism epidemic, when there really is no evidence of an autism epidemic. He wants to talk about crank theories or talk about how it’s mould that’s causing this. He wants to do so much and he wants to spread so much misinformation in a way that is incredibly damaging to autistic people, and also to their families and loved ones. He's the same person who says that autism destroys families and destroys children, so it really is going to have a long-lasting deleterious effects.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And why do you say that, Eric? What’s happening to make you say this?

ERIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think one of the things that we’ve seen and I’ve reported on extensively is just how they’ve cancelled numerous grants that could assist autistic people; the Trump administration cancelled grants to the National Science Foundation to help autistic people find jobs in STEM. Instead they’re focusing on paracetamol and vaccines. A grant that was cancelled that would have focused on suicide in autistic women and girls and gender minorities, including transpeople; that was cancelled. Instead they’re focusing on the epidemic. So, yeah, it’s incredibly damaging.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, instead of focusing on helping autistic people to live their best lives they want to cure the autism, that’s what you’re saying?

ERIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, absolutely. And there’s no real evidence that there’s anything really that can cure autism as of this moment. And Marty Makary the President’s FDA director said that we could prevent this, when he was talking about severe autism, when there’s no evidence right now that it could actually prevent these symptoms or these strains.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Obviously you’ve met one autistic person, you’ve met one autistic person, some autistic people have much higher needs than other autistic people. But many, many of the autistic people that I have met are incredibly proud of this part of their identity. How are they feeling?

ERIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I was talking with a lot of parents just yesterday about how they’re afraid of getting their children screened for autism. And some of these parents are autistic themselves, but they’re afraid of the stigma, they’re afraid of the baggage that that label carries. And I think that it’s going to take a lot of undoing and it’s going to create a lot of stigma, when in fact what we should be doing is we should be looking at these autistic people and how they come to embrace their identities and how do they help other autistic people in their families embrace their identity as well.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s really interesting that people are potentially choosing not to screen their children to find out if they’re autistic or not. What would the upshot of that be? What would happen if less people did do that?

ERIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I mean, the upshot of that would be that would just get fewer services, they probably wouldn’t get the same services at school, so they wouldn’t get their individualised education plans. So, it could have long-lasting effects. We could wind up having an entire ghost generation of autistic people.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Eric Garcia, thank you for joining me on Access All.

ERIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you so much for having me.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Welsh influencer, Jessie Yendle, is known for sharing what it’s like to have a stammer with her 3.5 million followers on TikTok. Recently though German football team, Borussia Dortmund, and the triathlon organisers, Ironman, posted videos which appeared to mock how Jessie talks without gaining her permission. The videos have since been taken down and Jessie has had an apology from both. But it has had a big emotional impact on her. Now Jessie is with me to talk about what happened, but also more importantly to talk about her years’ long social media success. Now, Jessie, if it’s okay to ask, what was in the videos that were posted about you?

JESSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It was a three-second clip of me [stammers] stammering, and then it went into a song. And the video would be, when it came to the football club and it was one of the footballers and they were scoring the goals. And when it came to the Ironman video they were just the athletes basically.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý How did you find out about the videos, because you were actually on a social media break, weren’t you?

JESSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, I was. My husband had a text message off one of his friends, and they basically said, ‘Have you seen the Ironman video?’ And he told me and then we had a look at the video and we couldn’t believe what we were seeing to be honest with you. I just felt a truly [stammers] humiliated and I felt so angry.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Why?

JESSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think it’s because I’ve spent my entire life being so mis-[stammers]-understood, but also judged. And I’m so much more than my speech.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s interesting, you’ve been on TikTok for four years in a big way, you have 3.5 million followers, you’ve produced a lot of videos. You must have come across something like this before, have you?

JESSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’ve had the trolls and I’ve had the negative comments, but nothing as on this [stammers] scale. The football club has got 17 million followers, and Ironman they’ve got over one million followers.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And what did other stammerers say about the videos?

JESSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý They’re sticking up for me and they’re trying to educate other people that it is a speech impediment. Because Ironman they thought it was a social media trend.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The Ironman said this in their apology that they thought this was a social media trend. How did you feel about that?

JESSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I just was speechless to be honest with you. My social media, I spent so many years raising awareness and talking about speech impediments.

[Clip]

JESSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Can I get please a [stammers] peach green iced tea, like, with strawberry?

[End of clip]

JESSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And it just goes to show [stammers] that more needs to be done? Why use my face and why use my speech? I have just so many questions to ask them.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, they have both apologised officially, and Borussia Dortmund have offered to fly you to a Champions League game to apologise in person. Will you be taking them up on that?

JESSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] no, absolutely not, absolutely not. When I was in [stammers] school I got bullied for my speech, and to have this football team to mock my speech basically in that video no, I will not be taking the football tickets at all. I’ve got a petition on the go for a speech impediment symbol, and I’ll continue to raise awareness. And I don’t need those football tickets.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, sure. So, tell me a bit more about the symbol, Jessie, a speech impediment symbol? What are you looking for? What would it look like? What would it do?

JESSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, basically I’ve designed a symbol, and the idea is when you go to a coffee shop, for example, and you’re trying to say your order and you can show the symbol so the barista will give you a bit more patience and not try to finish your sentence for you.

[Clip]

JESSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Stammers] have you got, have you got [stammers]…[sighs] have you got any banana bread at all?

FEMALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No problem, I’ll get that for you.

[End of clip]

JESSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And it even comes to border control when they ask you questions.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, so like in an airport?

JESSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh my goodness, yeah. And it’s happened to me, and it’s happened to me so many times and I start to stutter. And I feel so guilty for something, and I’m like no, I’ve got a speech impediment, so yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. So, what would the symbol look like, Jessie?

JESSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s got a side profile of [stammers] a face, and then it’s got like the sound waves coming out of the mouth.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What’s your favourite video that you’ve done?

JESSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I would say my favourite video has to be the random acts of kindness videos. And it’s where I go up to people on the street. And it started [stammers] because of my confidence was really low and I wouldn’t speak to people, and so I decided to go on the street and to walk up to people and to have a conversation with them and to hand them some flowers.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh.

JESSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý They’re my favourite videos. I love doing them because it makes people smile.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s so lovely. Well, you know what, it’s been a really serious conversation in a lot of ways but you’re such a positive person and you’ve made me smile, so thank you so much for chatting to me, Jessie Yendle.

JESSIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you for having me.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That is it for this week’s Access All. Thank you for listening and thanks to all my lovely guests as well. You can contact us accessall@bbc.co.uk is my email address. And I’ll see you next week. Bye.

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