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“He had no guardrails. He had no rules. He told Donald Trump, you know, when criticised, attack, attack, attack, deny, deny deny, always go on the offensive, never apologise. And Trump, when he met Roy Cohn, he began mimicing how he talked.” �鶹�� Newsnight presenter Paddy O’Connell, speaks to author Kai Bird about Roy Cohn, Donald Trump’s former lawyer and mentor. Cohn rose to prominence as Senator Joe McCarthy’s chief counsel in the early 1950s, helping drive the campaign against alleged communists in the United States. Decades later, he became Donald Trump’s lawyer and mentor shaping his approach to power. In an interview with �鶹�� Newsnight, Kai argues that Cohn’s lessons in attacking, denying and never apologising provided a blueprint for Trump’s political life. The Interview brings you conversations with people shaping our world, from all over the world. The best interviews coming from the �鶹��, including episodes with Google CEO Sundar Pichai and author Maggie O’Farrell. You can listen on the �鶹�� World Service on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays at 0800 GMT. Or you can listen to The Interview as a podcast, out three times a week on �鶹�� Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts. Presenter: Paddy O’Connell Producer: Osman Iqbal Editor: Farhana Haider (Image: Kai Bird. Credit: Getty)