Â鶹Éç

Downloaded from www.bbc.co.uk/radio4

Ìý

THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.Ìý BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE Â鶹Éç CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

Ìý

Ìý

IN TOUCH – Guide dogs and guide runners

Ìý

TX:Ìý 02.06.20Ìý 2040-2100

Ìý

PRESENTER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý PETER WHITE

Ìý

PRODUCER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý KEV CORE

Ìý

Ìý

Ìý

White

Good evening.Ìý Tonight, when will guide dog training restart?Ìý And what about those left waiting for a replacement dog when lockdown began?Ìý We’ll be seeking some answers in a moment.

Ìý

Then there are those people who want to resume their running with a human guide.

Ìý

Clip

You know, as an adult I should be able to make some of those decisions myself, in consultation with my guide runner.

Ìý

White

And the tracing app which warns if you’ve been in contact with someone with coronavirus.Ìý We hear from one blind woman successfully using it.

Ìý

But first, when lockdown began Guide Dogs told us that regretfully they’d have to stop all face-to-face guide dog training.Ìý Bad news for someone like Christophe Lazure, who’d been on the waiting list for a replacement dog since early last year and who, when his dog was retired before lockdown, had already been warned that he might have to wait between six months and a year for another dog.

Ìý

Lazure

I was shocked and devastated to hear the news.Ìý With such restricted mobility, my social life went downhill.Ìý I used to go for long walks on the common every day with Molly for my physical and mental health, that’s gone.Ìý And emotionally I am a single man living alone, Molly was on my side for almost nine years, practically 24/7 and now I have an empty space with a big question mark – why?

Ìý

White

And that’s exactly the question that I wanted to put to Guide Dogs Director of Operations Pete Osborne – why does Christophe and people like him have to wait so long?

Ìý

Osborne

Well it is indeed devastating, as I know personally as a guide dog owner myself, to have to wait for your next dog.Ìý That’s something we try to avoid in every instance and we’re really focused on getting ourselves back, finding a way forward from this incredible situation that we all find ourselves in.Ìý I don’t think I’ve ever personally been involved in or managed anything quite so difficult as this and almost getting things back on their feet and finding a way forward is as challenging, if not more challenging, than the business of having to close things down as we needed to and having to temporarily stop face-to-face services.Ìý I think…

Ìý

White

But this isn’t – this isn’t just about lockdown is it, he had been given a long waiting time before that had ever happened.

Ìý

Osborne

Yeah, we have over 700 people on the waiting list for a guide dog and that has reduced substantially over the last year to 18 months.Ìý What I would like to say to people, like Christophe, is that we will be prioritising replacing dogs wherever we can, we know that’s an absolute priority that actually might be easier to do, as well, because it’s not like learning to drive from scratch, it’s like topping up your knowledge, if you like.Ìý So, as soon as we can possibly offer face-to-face services and it will be as soon as we can do it, we will be getting going with training people like Christophe.

Ìý

White

But why are people having to wait so long?Ìý Is it a lack of trainers, is it a lack of dogs?Ìý It’s not a lack of money, you’re doing quite well financially, unlike a lot of voluntary organisations.

Ìý

Osborne

Yeah, we’ve been investing in increasing our training staff for some time now, we’ve been recruiting trainees but it takes up to three years to train a guide dog mobility instructor, so there’s quite a lag time on that.Ìý We’re continuing to train those trainees that we have, including in London and the South East, where we have a particular shortage of trainers.Ìý So, it’s an absolute key priority for us as an organisation.

Ìý

White

So, when Christophe says that the number of instructors has gone down from about 11 to about four, from when he trained in the past, he’s right about that?

Ìý

Osborne

There has been a reduction in the South East, yes, we’re trying to recruit replacements, we’re in the process of doing that.Ìý We’ve recruited across all of our frontline services more than 60 frontline staff in the last couple of years and we have a plan to continue with that.Ìý Our trustees…

Ìý

White

So, why was it allowed to dip though, this is your core work providing dogs and it’s crucial, as we heard from Christophe, why did it get into that state?

Ìý

Osborne

Yeah, I think decisions were made originally – this goes back even as far as the last financial crisis that the world experienced – we took some decisions around the number of staff that we could recruit.Ìý However, I think what we need to focus on now is building that staff resource back up, actually making sure that our guide dog trainers, as well, have the skills to take dogs further in the process and that we have the skills to support existing partnerships because a key concern for me, at the moment, as well, like myself, is the number of partnerships out there who have not had an opportunity to work their dogs.

Ìý

White

Well that’s something we’re also hearing from people, worried about the fact that their dogs may lose some of their skills, they may lose their fitness.Ìý How can you put that right and what advice would you give them?

Ìý

Osborne

There’s lots of information on our website about how to maintain a dog’s fitness.Ìý We do more than 1500 calls a week to our service users at present.

Ìý

White

Could there be a spike in the demand for dogs, given the feared loss of independence brought about by worries around social distancing and if there is are you, given what you’ve told us, are you actually in a position to meet it, if it happens?

Ìý

Osborne

We’ve taken the decision not to close our waiting lists for services, so there will be a degree of a spike in any case because we’ve not been able to process and assess many of those applications during this period of lockdown.Ìý So, that is going to happen to some degree anyway.Ìý And I think then it becomes, certainly in the early stages of all of this, a process of assessing who we can train optimally, in the first instance, so that we get this right.Ìý And I think that will be, as I’ve said, focused on people who are actually returning guide dog owners, for their second or subsequent dog.Ìý And I do think that will result – and I have to be clear – I think that will result in a longer wait for some people who are new to the list.Ìý But it’s important to stress that this is not the only service that we provide.Ìý We will be looking to provide sighted guide training to friends and family, etc., so that we can support people.

Ìý

White

People will still be saying – yeah, but we haven’t heard any dates, we don’t know when you’re thinking of starting face-to-face services or indeed My Guide services.Ìý What can you tell us, could you give us a date?

Ìý

Osborne

I can, I can give you some indication at least.Ìý We have around 50 suspended partnerships, so partnerships that didn’t complete their training before lockdown, we expect to be completing most of those partnerships within the coming weeks.Ìý We will then have all of the dogs that we need in training for the remainder of this year, they will be in training by the end of June – that’s our aim.Ìý And we will hope to restart further guide dog training, certainly by September and probably earlier than that.Ìý So, we’re putting the process in place, particularly for guide dog training, with the emphasis initially on people who are returning for subsequent dogs.Ìý But, you know, I’ve tweeted Boris Johnson personally myself and asked – it would be great to have some further clarification about what is possible within that two-metre social distancing bubble, if you like, for situations where actually it is impossible or very difficult to maintain that distancing.Ìý It would be really helpful to have some further clarification on that.

Ìý

White

Your My Guide service, which is volunteers escorting visually impaired people who, normally, who don’t have a dog on shopping expeditions or walks, now that service has been suspended as well, how quickly will it be reinstated now that lockdown is being relaxed to some extent?

Ìý

Osborne

Yeah, at the moment, we don’t have sufficient information about how it might be possible to operate within that two metres sort of bubble, if you like.Ìý But we’re looking at whether it’s possible in some instances for volunteers and the people that they are supporting almost to operate as a unit.Ìý But we are at the early stages of this, as you will appreciate, I’m sure the government advice is updated, it appears almost daily at the moment.

Ìý

White

To go back to our very first point about Christophe, I mean some guide dog owners tell us they fear that in your attempts to reach more people with services, like My Guide for example, you’re losing sight of your core activity – providing training and maintaining guide dogs – and that that’s led to this problem that Christophe has highlighted.Ìý What would you say to that?

Ìý

Osborne

I would say not while I live and breathe Peter, I’m a guide dog owner myself, I’ve had five guide dogs now, I’m a member of the senior management team and the whole senior management team and trustees are absolutely dedicated to ensuring we do as much as possible to reach as many people with all of our services, including our canine services.

Ìý

White

Guide Dogs Director of Operations Pete Osborne.Ìý And we’d like your views on what he said and your experiences.

Ìý

And from guide dogs to guide runners.Ìý Many visually impaired people have been able to join in with the enthusiasm of jogging and running thanks to the help of sighted people happy to run with them.Ìý Iris Peal is someone who takes her running very seriously and was training for a big event when coronavirus struck.

Ìý

Peal

I was getting ready for a Manchester marathon, so I was running 20, 30 miles a week in preparation for that.

Ìý

White

So, obviously a complete shock to your training regime?

Ìý

Peal

It was an absolute shock, it just came to a standstill, so from running 20, 30 miles a week I then went to running no miles a week.

Ìý

White

Now changed lockdown rules did allow you to meet up with one person in the open air, so how did you adapt running with your guide, because presumably up till then you hadn’t been able to do it at all?

Ìý

Peal

With the slight relaxation my guide and I thought that we could possibly give running a go and that we could try and run at a two-metre distance.Ìý Obviously not huge amounts of miles.Ìý But what I did before that was I went for a walk around a local park to see what the terrain was like and how that would be for running, either off tether or with a longer tether, and I felt that that would be possible and my guide felt it would be possible, so, we’d give it a go.Ìý And we went early in the morning, when it would be quiet and we found that it actually did work, that on the whole we were able to maintain a two-metre distance.

Ìý

White

But then they put out guidance, didn’t they, what effect did this have?

Ìý

Peal

Well English Athletics have put out guidance to say that guide runners should not run with visually impaired people as it wouldn’t meet the government guidelines.Ìý So, that meant that it made my guide quite anxious about being able to run because she’s obviously registered as a guide runner and they’re actually saying don’t do it.Ìý I’ve written, asking them did they consult with any visually impaired people and also saying that actually I felt it was applying a blanket rule, which actually is making a huge assumption that you can’t run at a two-metre distance.Ìý And also, all visually impaired people are different and people have different abilities and I don’t think that England Athletics have acknowledged that in their blanket guidance.

Ìý

White

Well, they have told us that they are raising guided running in their discussions but at the moment they say safety comes first.Ìý I mean what do you feel about this decision?

Ìý

Peal

I feel again that in itself is quite discriminatory, it’s not enabling or empowering me and my guide to make our decisions regarding running and risk, because I feel that I did risk assess the situation by going for a walk around the park that we ran in and talking to my guide and actually saying how we would communicate more with each other and taking it steady.Ìý So, actually think it’s actually just making assumptions.

Ìý

I do appreciate that health and safety and risk are important but I feel that as an adult that I should be able to make some of those decisions myself in consultation with my guide runner.Ìý I know what my abilities are, England Athletics doesn’t.

Ìý

White

And of course, you are a key worker, you work in social care, so, I guess you have to make risk assessments all the time, don’t you?

Ìý

Peal

Absolutely, risk is a big part of what I do.

Ìý

White

Iris Peal.

Ìý

Now, it’s usually topping the sunshine league tables and the odd mega pop festival which gets the Isle of Wight into the news but it’s recently made all the headlines when it was chosen to trial a smartphone app which would alert people that they’d been in contact with someone who had coronavirus.Ìý But the question I didn’t hear asked was – is it accessible for visually impaired people.

Ìý

Well, Ruth Hollingshead wanted to know the answer to that too.Ìý So, I asked her did she find out about it and how accessible was that?

Ìý

Hollingshead

Well that was the first problem.Ìý I mean I’m a trustee for Sight for Wight on the Isle of Wight and that was one of our concerns because the information was being given out via a leaflet, posted through your door.Ìý I got my leaflet and immediately rang the council to sort of say – how can I access the link.Ìý And I have to say they were very good; they did email me the link so I could do it via that.

Ìý

White

Just give us a sense, at the time, what was the attitude to it on the Isle of Wight as it was launched?

Ìý

Hollingshead

I think the majority of people were keen to sort of do our bit.Ìý I can see why they chose us geographically and people wanted to do everything they could to help in this situation.Ìý So, it was reasonably positive.

Ìý

White

You decided to do it.Ìý How did it work for you?

Ìý

Hollingshead

It was very, very simple, I have to say, I pressed the link, I pressed the download button.Ìý I use voiceover, I have an iPhone, so I could hear the clear instructions.Ìý We had to enter the first four digits of our postcode to prove we were an island resident but that was no more fiddly than it is typing anything using the keyboard, so I managed to do that and it downloaded and it just sits there on your phone.Ìý I’ve noticed no difference at all, it hasn’t drained the battery anymore than usual.Ìý You do have to leave your Bluetooth on, it doesn’t put any extra strain on your phone, as I say, you wouldn’t know it was there.

Ìý

White

But of course, you do have to have the right smartphone to do it and be reasonably competent and confident with it.

Ìý

Hollingshead

When it first came out if your phone was more than sort of two years old it wouldn’t load.Ìý I know they’ve been trying to address these problems but there have been a lot of people who haven’t – just haven’t been able to download it because the operating system on their phone is too old.Ìý My son, for example, can’t download it onto his.Ìý So, yeah, there has been a few hiccups and, as I say, I’m quite competent voiceover user, if you weren’t then you may well have struggled.

Ìý

White

How can you know when it’s got something to tell you?

Ìý

Hollingshead

Well, from what I understand, you can open the app and it will say – how are you feeling today – and if you click – I feel fine – it just says – you need to do nothing else.Ìý If you say – I don’t feel fine – then another screen will open, it says things like – do you have a headache – yes, no – do you have a high temperature – yes, no.Ìý I haven’t had – obviously had any contact with anybody else who’s tested positive, so I haven’t had a notification through but I’m presuming it would come through in the form of either a text or a notification on the app telling you to take further action, if you like.

Ìý

White

Some people have expressed worries about how else the data might be used and how long it might be held, I mean does that worry you?

Ìý

Hollingshead

No, not at all.Ìý I think if you use Facebook or any of the other social media platforms then anything anyone could possibly want to know about you is already out there.Ìý They only ask for the four digits of your postcode, there was no asking for access to your contacts or – I didn’t even give my name, so there’s no personal information at this stage.Ìý Obviously, if you have to report symptoms, I presume you would then have to give more personal information.

Ìý

White

Now you had a very early preview, have you been asked questions about it by other visually impaired people?

Ìý

Hollingshead

I have.Ìý I’ve been like a celebrity this week.Ìý I’ve been contacted by The National Federation for the Blind, the London branch; the Braille Foundation – yeah pardon the pun – I keep my eye on all the VI sort of Facebook groups and where I’ve seen questions, I’ve tried to answer them.Ìý And it has been very interesting talking to people right across the globe actually – Germany, America, everywhere – they’re all very interested.

Ìý

White

Were you surprised that it was as accessible as it was, for you anyway?

Ìý

Hollingshead

Yes, I was very prepared to get on my high horse and sort of write a sternly worded letter to somebody but actually it was very accessible.Ìý So, yeah, so, I haven’t spoken to anybody who’s got an android phone but certainly for an iPhone user with voiceover I had absolutely no problems at all.

Ìý

White

I suppose the best we can wish you is that it doesn’t bleep and remains silent.Ìý Ruth Hollingshead, thanks very much for joining us.

Ìý

The app was due to be introduced elsewhere during May but the Department of Health and Social Care now say it’ll be introduced during the coming weeks.

Ìý

How easy has it been for you to get accessible information during this pandemic?Ìý Do let us know about good and bad examples of accessible information.Ìý You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk or go to our website:Ìý bbc.co.uk/intouch from where you can download tonight’s and other editions of the programme.

Ìý

That’s it from me, Peter White, producer Kev Core and studio manager Mark Ward.Ìý Goodbye.

Ìý