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鈥淭here are those that believe the power of law should be replaced by the law of power鈥�

Anna Foster speaks to Antonio Guterres, Secretary General of the United Nations, about the threat to international law from states acting through power and influence instead, in particular America. Defending the rule of law is necessary, he says, if we are to have a better world.

He also sets out the case for reform of the UN Security Council to allow it to remain effective and relevant in the face of increasingly complex global conflicts.

Antonio Guterres has been at the head of the United Nations since 2017, and is now entering his final year in office.

Thank you to the Today team for its help in making this programme.

The Interview brings you conversations with people shaping our world, from all over the world. The best interviews from the 麻豆社, including episodes with Colombia鈥檚 President Gustavo Petro, former Prime Minister of New Zealand Jacinda Ardern and Mustafa Suleyman, boss of Microsoft AI. You can listen on the 麻豆社 World Service on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays at 0800 GMT. Or you can listen to The Interview as a podcast, out three times a week on 麻豆社 Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts.

Presenter: Anna Foster
Producer: Lucy Sheppard
Editor: Justine Lang

Get in touch with us on email TheInterview@bbc.co.uk and use the hashtag #TheInterview麻豆社 on social media.

(Image: Antonio Guterres. Credit: Per-Anders Pettersson/Getty Images)